USCIS is challenging an unusually large number of H-1B applications • Hacker News Board

Re: USCIS is challenging an unusually large number of H-1B applications

#261

Post by hkmurakami » Tue, Nov 07, 2017, 9:51 PM UTC

pfarnsworth wrote: post #248

hkmurakami wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would go even further to say that the best US students are often "better" than the best international counterparts, because the US runs a primary and secondary education system with a philosophy to grow the standout students as much as possible. The best high schools encourage their top students to really dive deep into their subject of interest, rather than focus on improving the performance of laggards or general…

This is definitely not the case for public schools in CA, for the most part. That's why I'm basically forced to sending my children to private schools at considerable cost ($30k/yr/child).

Yes the schools themselves have a high variance distribution in what they are like and who they seek to serve.

Re: USCIS is challenging an unusually large number of H-1B applications

#262

Post by bischofs » Tue, Nov 07, 2017, 9:51 PM UTC

damnyou wrote: post #245

bischofs wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To play devils advocate, at this point in time with the highest rate of immigration in the history of the country (i think 13%) "conservatives" are looking out for the american citizens that are losing out to these high skilled (and low skilled) immigrants. Why is it that we cannot compete with foreign companies with native workers? Why should those countries be okay with losing their top talent? Shoudnt we solve the…

> Why should those countries be okay with losing their top talent? What sort of thinking is this? People stopped being subjects of their countries a while ago. Countries should compete for people, not trap them. If a country isn't OK with losing its top talent it should fix its institutions to make itself competitive. You know what country doesn't allow its citizens to leave? North Korea. Besides, remittances are a t…

I completely agree, countries should not trap people.

But why is it "making it" in some countries to leave and go to America? Why not build up your own country and affect their living standards in a positive way?

Personally I have no desire to leave my country because I like it and want to make it better. I think that is a healthy way to think about your identity.

Re: USCIS is challenging an unusually large number of H-1B applications

#263

Post by cyphar » Tue, Nov 07, 2017, 9:53 PM UTC

sjy wrote: post #182

cyphar wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it isn't hard to see how much garbage science and how useless a good chunk of international students are That statement is true of any group of students, international or local. On the other hand, there are good international students (and there are good local students). Is there any reason why you think the ratio isn't the same (in fact, you'd think that the ratio of good international students would be higher bec…

This is not entirely accurate because most Australian domestic university students have their fees heavily subsidised by the federal government, which is why they are called 'HECS-HELP contributions' and not fees. After taking into account government grants (including those made on account of domestic students' fees) and other sources of income international student fees make up less than 20% of university income on…

I think you may have misunderstood your source. "Government grants" (which are going to go away in the next few years if Turnbull has his way) have nothing to do with student fees. They are effectively research grants, and other forms of funding from the government (since our universities are partially publicly funded). And since everyone pays tax, effectively everyone is paying for those grants.

As for HECS-HELP loans, this is quite different from a subsidy. It's a loan from the government that has a guaranteed return (pretty good deal for them). But even from your own source, international student fees are 18.8% and total "local" contributions (including HECS loans) are 19.9%. Which is effectively what my original point was -- approximately half of the funding directly from students is from international students even though much less than half of the students are international students (I never said that 50% of total university funding is from international students, please re-read my comment).

If you are a local student and you don't use HECS you still only pay <25% what an international student would pay -- because they have a different per-course-unit fee structure that's far more expensive.

Re: USCIS is challenging an unusually large number of H-1B applications

#264

Post by jopsen » Tue, Nov 07, 2017, 9:55 PM UTC

neeleshs wrote: post #194

vostok wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many countries will grant you a visa so long as you make over a certain amount. This is much more open than the American lottery system.

Out of curiosity, which are these countries?

Denmark grants VISA if you find a job making > 62k USD per year. OR you work in an industry on the "positive list" which includes management, doctors, research, and tech jobs in general.

I'm sure lots of countries have similar rules.

Re: USCIS is challenging an unusually large number of H-1B applications

#265

Post by bbatha » Tue, Nov 07, 2017, 9:56 PM UTC

komali2 wrote: post #13

Conservatives may generally view this as "good" regardless of the impact because (according to arguments I've heard) "the less globalization, the better." In my mind, however, it boils down to two pretty simple points: Given that (1) the US is lagging far behind every developed nation in education, and higher education in the US is prohibitively expensive compared to other developed nations, (2) the only way for the…

> We take a 23yo Chinese engineering graduate as he's going to begin peak productivity - the USA didn't have to invest in his k-12, scholarship his university, clean the water he drank for 24 years, etc. Instantaneous social profit.

That's only the half of it. The US gives out far more F-1 student visas than H-1Bs (roughly 3x). That means that US infrastructure trains the student, but then the US doesn't get to take advantage of his or her output. Its really a lose-lose for the US.

Re: USCIS is challenging an unusually large number of H-1B applications

#266

Post by mywittyname » Tue, Nov 07, 2017, 9:57 PM UTC

majormajor wrote: post #38

ashleyn wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Paleoconservatism/populism isn't concerned about the economic benefits of immigration; it's concerned about "protecting" culture so that immigrants don't have the opportunity to reshape it in any capacity. A sizeable portion of Trump's base believes that they are in danger of becoming a minority in "their own" country and will sidestep the economic benefits of immigration to retain a demographic majority. To these vo…

What US Democrats ignore is that practically every damn country in the world does this too, often to a higher degree than the US. So there's a pragmatic question of how to avoid putting yourself at a disadvantage by being comparatively overgenerous that you don't have to be a "paleoconservative" or Trump supporter, or even Republican, to be concerned about.

Are other countries really overly generous? I'm only (vaguely) familiar with Canada, having worked with several Canadian immigrants, and the impression I get is that Canada is dead simple to immigrate to. So much so that there are suburbs of Toronto with so many Chinese immigrants that there are strip malls where all of the street signs are written in Chinese.

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.8408304,-79.398378,3a,53.5y,...

Re: USCIS is challenging an unusually large number of H-1B applications

#267

Post by damnyou » Tue, Nov 07, 2017, 9:58 PM UTC

bischofs wrote: post #262

damnyou wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why should those countries be okay with losing their top talent? What sort of thinking is this? People stopped being subjects of their countries a while ago. Countries should compete for people, not trap them. If a country isn't OK with losing its top talent it should fix its institutions to make itself competitive. You know what country doesn't allow its citizens to leave? North Korea. Besides, remittances are a t…

I completely agree, countries should not trap people. But why is it "making it" in some countries to leave and go to America? Why not build up your own country and affect their living standards in a positive way? Personally I have no desire to leave my country because I like it and want to make it better. I think that is a healthy way to think about your identity.

> But why is it "making it" in some countries to leave and go to America? Why not build up your own country and affect their living standards in a positive way?

Many reasons.

* Because they'll be able to add more value to society in the other country.

* Because they're part of a marginalized group and the other country has better protections for people like them. Maybe they can't get married in their home country but can in the other country, say.

* Most importantly, because they might not want to.

People should generally be free to do what they like, right?

> I have no desire to leave my country because I like it and want to make it better.

Great, sounds awesome! You're free to do as you desire. Others have different desires or constraints and should be free to do as they wish as well.

Re: USCIS is challenging an unusually large number of H-1B applications

#268

Post by whack » Tue, Nov 07, 2017, 9:58 PM UTC

Terr_ wrote: post #5

The particular anecdote in this article almost seems anti-convincing to me... It suggests a job that should get challenged: > For Centro, a company in Chicago that makes technology for ad agencies [...] applied for visas for three young employees who already had the legal right to work for a limited time after graduating from college. > To Clark's eyes, the position — which consisted of writing algorithms and require…

You're right. "Multiple programming languages" and RDBMS skills aren't exactly rare. Those are very poor reasons to hire someone.

Here are the real reasons they probably wanted to hire him: He's smart enough to do well on his SATs/GREs and go to a good university. He's hard working and conscientious enough to get a good GPA while in University. He's got great recommendations from his classmates, former employers and/or professors. He knows his stuff well enough to get through an interview pipeline that most others fail to get through.

There's one problem though. None of the above are considered valid reasons to hire someone on a H1B. The Stanford grad who knows Java inside and out, has a 4.0 GPA, a perfect SAT score, and amazing side-projects and recommendations... according to the law, he's just a cog, perfectly interchangeable with any CS graduate who manages to graduate with a C+ average.

Hence why companies have to come up with other ridiculous reasons for wanting to hire this guy. Because the real metrics that any rational person would take into consideration, are all considered inadmissible. If you start fighting with a guy who has one hand tied behind his back, don't be surprised if he doesn't follow proper boxing decorum.

Re: USCIS is challenging an unusually large number of H-1B applications

#269

Post by evgen » Tue, Nov 07, 2017, 10:00 PM UTC

Cyph0n wrote: post #161

creaghpatr wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to mention volume- the US has way more chances to develop the next genius from sheer numbers alone. Works the same way with Olympic sports.

I'm still waiting for a decent men's soccer team...

Kinda hard when other, more lucrative, sports steal most of your domestic talent. There is a reason the women's team is dominant in a way that then men's team is not, but the fact that a good US player really has to leave the country and take a gamble that most US collegiate athletes do not require does not help.

Re: USCIS is challenging an unusually large number of H-1B applications

#270

Post by pvelagal » Tue, Nov 07, 2017, 10:02 PM UTC

Here is my take on H1B, which after checking some facts, is the last thing to worry for an average US tech worker, who don't like H1B.

) 65k Visas + 20k (for US educated MS degree holders) = 85k total every year. Lets say each one gets a 130k salary (Senator Chuck Grassley's recommendation) = ~$12 billion

) $12 billion Income. Lets say all these H1Bs send 25% back to their home countries = $3 billion gone out of USA, $9 billion spent in USA

) India's Software exports to USA in 2016 - (61+24.4+22.4 = $107.8 billion) source : https://www.statista.com/statistics/320753/indian-it-softwar...

) Majority of these exports are to US. If we assume, the cost of getting software work done in India/China is probably 1/3rd of its cost in US, means, India, which exported ~$100+ billion worth of software, would have equalled $300 billion if the work was done in USA (thus creating jobs in USA).

*) India, through its software exports sucked $300 billion out of USA and hence took away jobs in USA.

Bottom line is, the rise of India's, China's software industries will suck the money out of USA. So, these numbers mean : H1B don't take jobs, Software engineers in India, China and rest of the world are taking them at an order of magnitude faster !