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An Open Letter to Intel

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Re: An Open Letter to Intel

#231
post #65
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It should be noted that Minix is code that was developed by university researchers. Researchers who are payed for by (primarily) European and Dutch tax euros. Also note that many of that time, energy and money to modify GPL code is not just programming time, but also a lot of legal advice time. With BSD-like license it should be immediately clear what you can do with the code (i.e. almost everything).

This is probably gonna be a controversial view but my experience is this as well: Deploying GPL code is a legal process. Deploying BSD is a development process. We spent thousands of dollars on legal advice when deploying GPL. In the end it was largely as we expected it to be: No significant action was needed beyond releasing the code to the components that we already got for free, with the minor modifications we had…

I'm so tired of hearing this. The GPL is only a legal problem if you are trying to skirt the rules and distribute proprietary software but use GPL components. I've never needed to legal advice to deal with GPL code.

Re: An Open Letter to Intel

#232
post #11

I can't tell if this is earnest or 2nd degree. Can people more familiar with Mr Tanenbaum's style enlighten me? Because if this is earnest I'm quite seriously baffled. I don't mind BSD at all and I won't comment on the political side of things but why on earth would you rejoice that you worked for free (I assume?) for Intel only to have your work end up in some user-hostile module forced on the users? Is Tanenbaum eg…

It's a bit of both I think. Tanenbaum absolutely has a sense of humour, but it's a fairly dry wit. In this particular case, I'm certain he would have honestly prefered to have been informed. It's nice to know when people use something you're giving away on such a large scale. There's certainly some professional pride in that.

At the same time, I'm sure he's totally aware that Intel wouldn't have told him anyway, because they meant to keep this secret, and AST is rubbing it in that their secrecy is not only deceptive to their customers, but also making them impolite to the creator of the OS they use. Presenting that impoliteness as the bigger problem is probably a joke.

He does make it clear at the bottom that he's not at all happy with how Minix has been used here. He's also aware that it's not illegal, but that doesn't mean it's not impolite. Towards him, certainly, but of course also to the end user.

He's probably serious about about the Berkeley license being superior, even if it means people use his work for things he doesn't approve of. His comment about Minix being the biggest OS in the world is a bit of ironic vindication, I think. I don't think it's actually true, considering how much Linux runs on ARM chips, and indeed many PCs use AMD chips, but it's a good joke, and nobody is going to take that opportunity away from him.

He's definitely serious about microkernels being superior. I don't doubt he wants to see that as the real reason why Intel chose Minix.

I have no idea how accurate my assessment is, though. It's been about 20 years since I followed his lectures, and never had any kind of personal talk with him.

Re: An Open Letter to Intel

#233
post #11

I can't tell if this is earnest or 2nd degree. Can people more familiar with Mr Tanenbaum's style enlighten me? Because if this is earnest I'm quite seriously baffled. I don't mind BSD at all and I won't comment on the political side of things but why on earth would you rejoice that you worked for free (I assume?) for Intel only to have your work end up in some user-hostile module forced on the users? Is Tanenbaum eg…

> Is Tanenbaum egotistical enough that merely having his work be "the most widely used computer operating system in the world" justifies everything?

He wrote an open letter just to tell everyone his OS is the most widely used in the world - even though he didn't need to, because 20 news outlets already did that job for him - and that he wants recognition. Of course it's ego. But he may not need to 'justify' it because he may not give a crap either way.

Re: An Open Letter to Intel

#234
post #103

All Dr. Tanenbaum is saying is that it would have been the classy thing to let him know, nothing more. Professor Tanenbaum is one of the most respected computer scientists alive, and for Intel to include Minix in their chip and not let him know is kind of unprofessional and not very nice to say the least. That is his only (and quite fair) point.

> and for Intel to include Minix in their chip and not let him know is kind of unprofessional and not very nice to say the least. I guess Minix' license, which allows this kind of behaviour, is the very reason Intel chose Minix in the first place. I imagine it would be very complicated to get management approval for informing Dr. Tannenbaum about the usage in Intel's ME. IMHO if he has a problem with the way things w…

Professional courtesy is not legally required. But it would have been the polite thing to do.

Re: An Open Letter to Intel

#235
post #216
post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The first good faith claim to do is to notice Intel to add the copyright notice.

It's rather late now, though, considering it's been around for years now without anyone knowing exactly because they did not include that copyright notice. I have no idea what copyright law says about damages in a case where the infringing party tries to keep their large-scale infringement secret.

The statutory damages option discussed above does not require a showing of actualy damages. It's just x dollars times the number of instances of infringement. Also, while delay in providing notice of infringement can work against the copyright owner, in this case, because Intel is a sophisticated party (i.e., big company with many in house lawyers and outside law firms advising them), the delay in making a claim would likely not help Intel's case.

Re: An Open Letter to Intel

#237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would also force Intel to give us a means to replace ME with something else which ultimately puts the user in control.

Nope, because they wouldn't use it then. I am not sure why people think the GPL had so much leverage over larger companies that will just build something in house.

I'm not sure why they used Minix at all. Surely Intel has enough expertise to build a custom OS that does exactly what they need and nothing else? That would have been easier to control for them, and it would have prevented this Minix-related news, which adds only more attention to something they'd have preferred to keep quiet.

Re: An Open Letter to Intel

#238
post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Free or open source software doesn't imply working for free. A copy of your software doesn't (necessarily) entail additional work. I guess whether people in general "work for free" depends on how you define "work" and "free". I work on many different things purely for their utility to my friends and me personally, or just for the fun of creating something. I work and I gain something from it, so the time spent on it…

> I guess whether people in general "work for free" depends on how you define "work" and "free". Then allow me to be clear: If you want to do something, and you get some kind of psychic reward for it; like volunteering in a soup kitchen, then that's great. But if you're only doing that because you're afraid of going to hell, then someone has convinced you to work for free . If you make some software, and someone tell…

> But if you're only doing that because you're afraid of going to hell, then someone has convinced you to work for free.

Then I'd work for the comfort of not believing that I would go to hell. The basis of that belief may be an act of deceit, though, which I am not sure is relevant for open source software. The licenses are clear, and no one is promising anything magically wonderful or terrible to happen depending on my engagement in it. If they do and I bite, maybe I am dumb.

> If you make some software, and someone tells you how great it would be if it did different things, and then gets offended when you send them your day-rate, so you do it anyway, then someone has convinced you to work for free.

No, they have freed themselves from the responsibility of paying me for the work, clearly making it my problem. I then decide myself whether to do it based on what I gain from it. Maybe they convinced me to do it, but whether I'd do it for free is ultimately a matter of how I personally value the work.

> If you've got a more useful definition of "working for free" then I'm happy to hear it, and entertain it

Making an effort to achieve a result without gaining something from it? The only reason I could see myself working for free in this sense is if someone forces me to do it.

> I think these guys who go around trying to convince people that releasing "open source" is somehow "more free" and that "freedom is good" is a little bit like we've always been at war with Eastasia. It doesn't make sense to me: In a twisted sort of way, a slaveowner is more free than a non-slaveowner because they don't have obligations (like to work), but it doesn't make this sort of thing right. Being a slaveowner isn't right even if being free is.

"Open source" is not "more free" in any general sense. It just means that the source is available for free use and distribution. It doesn't necessarily make you more free, nor does it make anyone that is subject to whatever malicious purpose the software might serve more free. It frees the user of the software from a tiny set of specific obligations normally associated with licensing a copyright protected work. Those other things may be important but not at all what the BSD license concerns. Let the Intel-MINIX debacle be a lesson in the total orthogonality of freedom in general and free use of a piece of software.

> The nth copy of my software cost 1/n of my time.

No, it comes at no cost to you if you. Developing the software costs you time. That you reimburse yourself for the time it takes you to develop the software by charging for copies of it is an arbitrary choice, not an inherent relationship between the time spent and the number of copies made. If you were chopping wood, it might be a different matter, but with software, the time is spent on producing it, and selling a copy of piece of software doesn't mean you can't sell it again. The money you receive for a copy of a piece of software is rent.

Tanenbaum makes a great example of this. He is being paid for his work, yet the software is open source. He is not being paid for copies. Another good example is that of a simple employee. I get paid a monthly salary for performing a day job. Like Tanenbaum, I might get much less value out of it than the users of the software (or whoever is selling it) do, but I certainly don't work for free. I get paid for my effort and time, not for copies.

Re: An Open Letter to Intel

#239
> this bit of news reaffirms my view that the Berkeley license provides the maximum amount of freedom to potential users.

I find it incredible how ~ast can consider the intel ME to be achieving "the maximum amount of freedom" to potential users. He even criticises it in the very next paragraph.

More generally, I find it incredible how people can view the attempts (by copyleft) to restrict the freedom to restrict others, as attacks on freedom.

Re: An Open Letter to Intel

#240
I am saddened that Tannenbaum's only comment about the existence and purpose of the Management Engine is in a postscript, and a very weak one at that:

"Many people (including me) don't like the idea of an all-powerful management engine in there at all (since it is a possible security hole and a dangerous idea in the first place), but that is Intel's business decision and a separate issue from the code it runs."

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