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Chrome breaks the Web

tonsky.me

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Re: Chrome breaks the Web

#411

Post by dx034 »

somebehemoth wrote: post #76
dx034 wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> same with apple - "now we'll ignore user-scalable=no and screw every responsive webapp out there" Maybe because 90% of responsive webapps would be better implemented as standard html websites which would improve performance and help preserving battery.

90% according to whom?

According to me. Maybe even higher than 90%. There are a few applications where you need a single-page app. Google Docs is an example or websites that integrate a messenger (e.g. Facebook). For the rest, SPA are a waste of resources and work worse with slow internet. Reddit is a prime example. UX has deteriorated since they switched to loading everything dynamically (again, only me as a source) with no good reason to implement it that way.

Re: Chrome breaks the Web

#412

Post by twothamendment »

ric2b wrote: post #408
notjoemama wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Woah woah woah. Let me recount/nutshell the crux of conversations I've had with my product manager(s) about things like this. Me: Hey, I'd like to add a work-item to our current sprint that reworks semantic attributes into our site. Them: What would that do? Me: It improves the underlying architecture making the markup more usable and extensible. Them: How does that benefit the users? Me: Over time it will reduce the…

Try to make those requests via e-mail, so you have something to show when it breaks or becomes hard to maintain.

I've learned when I have to start getting things in writing that it is time to find a better job. I can't stand playing games at work.

Re: Chrome breaks the Web

#413

Post by twothamendment »

saas_co_de wrote: post #84
KeitIG wrote: post #9

> they made all top-level event listeners passive by default. They call it “an intervention”. This is my very problem with Chrome/Chromium right now. The Chrome team does assumption on how things "should" be (in a highly subjective way) and breaks the web. Another example: they decided to ignore the value of `autocomplete` attributes on ` ` tags [1], because: > The tricky part here is that somewhere along the journey…

> does assumption on how things "should" be (in a highly subjective way) They claim they are making these decisions based on user data which I have no reason to doubt. > and breaks the web. Breaks crap websites that are broken already from performance and usability perspective. I personally think this is exactly what is needed to make the web better as a whole. Individual developers working for individual companies a…

How about deciding to ignore requests to play a sound? I like it as a user but as a dev, now I have a big report that says the cash register isn't making a beep sounds when the user scans an item. Yes there is a setting to turn it off, but now there are quite a few people confused about why it quit working.

Re: Chrome breaks the Web

#414

Post by mcv »

CydeWeys wrote: post #110
mcv wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the question becomes what's less bad: for website developers to break their own site, or for Chrome to break other people's site. I'm all for empowering browsers to override abusive behaviour from websites, but using bad defaults and breaking innocent websites as a result is not the solution.

Chrome is a program that I run on my computer. It protects my interests, not the interests of random crappy website developers doing horrible things like hijacking clipboard events. I'm all for the defaults being whatever is best for me. The browser is the agent of the user.

But is it best for you when sites you use don't work properly because the latest update of your browser breaks the standard?

I'm all for giving users the power to ignore the standard and disable certain features, but forcing it on users without making it configurable sounds like a really bad idea.

A better idea would be to show that yellow bar at the top explaining briefly what the site does and asking whether the user wants to allow that. That keeps the user informed and empowered, rather than subject to the whims of the website and browser makers.

Re: Chrome breaks the Web

#415

Post by mcv »

will_hughes wrote: post #338
CydeWeys wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chrome is a program that I run on my computer. It protects my interests, not the interests of random crappy website developers doing horrible things like hijacking clipboard events. I'm all for the defaults being whatever is best for me. The browser is the agent of the user.

That's certainly one view of the world. Come work tech support for a company/product with a web-based form that has a password field in it (like a CRM or other administrative system). Now explain to users why we can't stop their browser filling in their password in the field that's asking for the other user's password. I've had situations where I'm configuring a VPN connection on the web interface for a router... the…

I suppose you could tell them to go back to a previous version of the browser.

Of course that would be a terrible idea for a number of other reasons, but if enough people specifically avoid more recent versions of Chrome for this reason, maybe Google will finally do what's actually best for users and make this behaviour configurable.

Re: Chrome breaks the Web

#416

Post by laumars »

magicalist wrote: post #348
laumars wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If we don’t want to repeat the 90’s we have to complain a lot sooner. Complaining wouldn't change anything. Corporations don't change their policies because a few nerds moan on a few message boards. > If your litmus test is “as bad as Microsoft” then that’s exactly what we will get. It wasn't my litmus test. I feel you're missing my point because others are making that comparison and I'm saying the two don't compar…

FWIW, only the second bullet point applies here > both are a free product that locks users into the company's revenue stream (ads in AMP for Google, Windows for MS) Ads on AMP sites don't have to be from google > both onboarded developers with promises to better user experience while locking them into a non-standard platform. AMP, while a particular subset of HTML/JS, is still just a subset, aka part of the standard…

> Ads on AMP sites don't have to be from google

AFAIK they do if you want to be on the carousel above the search results on Google Search. It's part and parcel of using the Google AMP CDN. Sure you can use other CDNs (even roll your own) but then you do not appear on the AMP carousel above Google search results (which is highly valuable real estate).

> AMP, while a particular subset of HTML/JS, is still just a subset, aka part of the standard platform and can run in any browser. Calling it non-standard would be like calling it non-standard to use React. It's just a library/framework.

The fact it's a subset makes it non-standard because you cannot then write standard HTML / JS.

To flip the argument, this debate started because Chrome was accused of not following standards because it ignores some HTML properties (eg autocomplete). You could argue the same as you were for AMP that Chrome is following a subset.

Personally I find it a stretch to argue that x being a subset of the standard means x is a standard.

Re: Chrome breaks the Web

#417

Post by mcv »

Tyr42 wrote: post #358
pas wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Users don't use thousands of sites. If a site misbehaves and users want autofill on it, they should be able to override autocomplete=off for that site. Google could even make an extension for this to allow users to gather and share a list of sites that behave in a user unfriendly way. But of course, it was much easier to fuck up half of the Web. Public choice and mandates are great for things that require cooperation…

> If a site misbehaves and users want autofill on it, they should be able to override autocomplete=off for that site. How? What do you imagine?

With the same yellow bar at the top that they use for other issues. Tell them what the site is doing and ask whether they want to allow or block that, and whether to do that for all sites or only this one.

Re: Chrome breaks the Web

#418

Post by jhasse »

jarym wrote: post #409
jhasse wrote: post #407

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You shouldn't enforce anything, since you can't really anyway: The shared computer might record the screen or have a key-logger installed.

Well then let's just throw away any kind of data entry then since any computer might have a key logger installed.... sigh

> any computer might have a key logger installed

You know very well that for your own computer it's very unlikely that it has a key logger. But not for public computers, so it's a good thing that users are aware of that.

Re: Chrome breaks the Web

#419

Post by mcv »

robryan wrote: post #346
comatose wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it's a little reductio ad absurdum but what about defaulting to popup blocking? blink? marquee? It's not the same thing but maybe worth considering when defending web author's intent being ignored.

At least popup blocking has an opt out if you need it.

Exactly, and this issue could and should have been handled in the same way.

Re: Chrome breaks the Web

#420

Post by mcv »

virgilp wrote: post #163
mcv wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm all for allowing the user to control whether autocomplete is or isn't respected. But the browser breaking web standards to force certain choices on the user is about the worst possible way to go about this.

Aren't cookies a web standard? I can assure you that Safari's policies w.r.t. cookies "break" a lot of website functionality, and quite intentionally so. You may not like that functionality, but the website marketers like it and have spent lots of time implementing it. So - what's ok to break, and what isn't? In the end, it's a judgement call on the browser developer. I like what another person said here - the browse…

Give the user control. Breaking behaviour that the user might rely on, is not acting in the interest of the user. If you think it's better to block certain behaviour, at least tell the user and allow them to override your default.
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