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MINIX: ​Intel's hidden in-chip operating system

zdnet.com

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Re: MINIX: ​Intel's hidden in-chip operating system

#21

Post by StreamBright »

benevol wrote: post #7
StreamBright wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Implying opensource cannot contain backdoors for years. https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2010/12/fbi-a...

The open-source approach is our own chance to purge corruption in the technology layer. We may not yet have implemented the idea perfectly, but keep in mind the following: With every new player (government, company, user) joining the open-source approach, we get additional eyes on the code/hardware. Imagine all world governments using only open-source code/hardware: Given the current budgets at play, we would have 10…

I am not sure if you understand the complexity of validating crypto or finding backdoors in software. It is possible to find bugs in closed source software and as the link I provided proves it is possible to "hide" backdoors in open source software.

100% secure? You must be joking. Since there is no code without bugs and certain percentage of bugs have security implications there is no 100% secure.

Re: MINIX: ​Intel's hidden in-chip operating system

#22

Post by StreamBright »

jmnicolas wrote: post #6
StreamBright wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Implying opensource cannot contain backdoors for years. https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2010/12/fbi-a...

Yeah but at least you have a chance to find the backdoors.

It is possible find backdoors in closed source software. Check the Cisco story.

Re: MINIX: ​Intel's hidden in-chip operating system

#23

Post by JepZ »

While I am unsure if switchting to Linux for ME is a good solution, open sourcing whatever runs ME is a very important step towards user/customer security. And that is not because we all want to know intels secrets about 'how to make the fastest CPU' but because ME can change the product on a fundamental level while we use the product.

The reason I doubt that Linux is a good solution is that linux wasn't built to run somewhere deep inside a cpu with very little overhead. Surely, it can run nearly everywhere, I just doubt that it is the best choice for that job.

Just to be clear: I love Linux, not just for what it is, but also for what it does and use it every day since more than a decade.

Re: MINIX: ​Intel's hidden in-chip operating system

#24

Post by StreamBright »

ekianjo wrote: post #9
StreamBright wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Implying opensource cannot contain backdoors for years. https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2010/12/fbi-a...

If it's not open it's even less likely to be found in the first place. Do you have other options?

How many people were capable of spotting a backdoor in the standard[1]? Do you think that an average person can just look at a source code and spot any backdoor or security bug?

1. https://www.wired.com/images_blogs/threatlevel/2013/09/15-sh...

Re: MINIX: ​Intel's hidden in-chip operating system

#25

Post by wjnc »

sengork wrote: post #20

Makes me wonder what Tanenbaum thinks of the arguably most common MINIX deployment. Considering that their conference has been cancelled [0] it would seem that this OS is largely unexplored and by extension not thoroughly audited. [0] - http://www.minix3.org/

He doesn't seem to mind [1]:

"The only thing that would have been nice is that after the project had been finished and the chip deployed, that someone from Intel would have told me, just as a courtesy, that MINIX 3 was now probably the most widely used operating system in the world on x86 computers."

[1] - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15642116

Re: MINIX: ​Intel's hidden in-chip operating system

#26

Post by chii »

cjsuk wrote: post #13
mosselman wrote: post #5

So if switching to AMD is NOT the solution, what is? ARM? For your portable needs there is: https://puri.sm/posts/purism-librem-laptops-completely-disab...

SPARC was the solution. It's open and royalty free and was sold by multiple vendors. Add to that Open Firmware and you're done. It's also not the hacked up turd that x86-64 is or the fragmented mess that ARM is. Problem is it's dead. Going out on a limb here, but we can solve this with another layer of abstraction in the long term. We need to develop a fully portable open source virtual machine model (think p-code ma…

> Problem is it's dead.

and if it's so good, why is sparc dead?

Re: MINIX: ​Intel's hidden in-chip operating system

#27

Post by detaro »

chii wrote: post #26
cjsuk wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

SPARC was the solution. It's open and royalty free and was sold by multiple vendors. Add to that Open Firmware and you're done. It's also not the hacked up turd that x86-64 is or the fragmented mess that ARM is. Problem is it's dead. Going out on a limb here, but we can solve this with another layer of abstraction in the long term. We need to develop a fully portable open source virtual machine model (think p-code ma…

> Problem is it's dead. and if it's so good, why is sparc dead?

Because most people don't buy their CPUs for openness, they buy them for price, performance and software support.

As far as I know, Fujitsu still sells it with high-end servers (attempting to take on IBM POWER), and it's still floating around in embedded designs, but it's a niche choice, with the associated downsides.

Re: MINIX: ​Intel's hidden in-chip operating system

#28

Post by cjsuk »

detaro wrote: post #27
chii wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Problem is it's dead. and if it's so good, why is sparc dead?

Because most people don't buy their CPUs for openness, they buy them for price, performance and software support. As far as I know, Fujitsu still sells it with high-end servers (attempting to take on IBM POWER), and it's still floating around in embedded designs, but it's a niche choice, with the associated downsides.

Yes. Software support was good, but price and performance were not. That and Oracle.

Re: MINIX: ​Intel's hidden in-chip operating system

#29

Post by jabl »

deno wrote: post #17
mosselman wrote: post #5

So if switching to AMD is NOT the solution, what is? ARM? For your portable needs there is: https://puri.sm/posts/purism-librem-laptops-completely-disab...

For desktop your options are: — FX 8350 (Piledriver) from AMD with no PSP: very cheap, no flashing necessary, but not the best performance. Single core performance much worse than even Pentium G4620[1]. — Some Intel processors and a Raspberry Pi: much better performance but you have to ME_Clean the firmware, hence the Pi. — POWER9 processor for amazing performance and completely open & free firmware all around: the C…

> Personally I recommend IvyBridge-EP or Haswell Xeon E5

Err, the ME has been present on every Intel system since 2006 or so.

The only thing that changed with Skylake is that the ME runs on an x86 core, on previous processors the ME ran on some RISC microcontroller.

Re: MINIX: ​Intel's hidden in-chip operating system

#30

Post by deno »

jabl wrote: post #29
deno wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For desktop your options are: — FX 8350 (Piledriver) from AMD with no PSP: very cheap, no flashing necessary, but not the best performance. Single core performance much worse than even Pentium G4620[1]. — Some Intel processors and a Raspberry Pi: much better performance but you have to ME_Clean the firmware, hence the Pi. — POWER9 processor for amazing performance and completely open & free firmware all around: the C…

> Personally I recommend IvyBridge-EP or Haswell Xeon E5 Err, the ME has been present on every Intel system since 2006 or so. The only thing that changed with Skylake is that the ME runs on an x86 core, on previous processors the ME ran on some RISC microcontroller.

That’s not the only thing, but yeah I suppose you can get Skylake/Kabylake now with the HAP workaround.
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