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Shut up and calculate: an extreme mathematical universe

arxiv.org

161–170 of 191 posts

Re: Shut up and calculate: an extreme mathematical universe

#161

If our reality consists of mathematical programs and the multiverse theory holds, then the theory of everything is a simple incrementing binary counter. Every possible binary string is ran on a Turing machine in a different universe. The halting problem (endless loops) is sidestepped by being contained to a single universe. Also, apparently our universe got lucky as we get to live in an ordered universe, and not diss…

I think you've confused the representation with the computation. Sure maybe that binary number could represent a universe state in some encoding. But there's no computation happening to it. It's static. >I believe that mathematics is a mental construct, mathematics does not exist without brains Brains evolved through natural selection to survive in the universe we exist in. Ideas similarly "evolved" to be good at mod…

> But there's no computation happening to it. It's static.

There are three possible answers to this: The binary string itself is a form of computation, with 1's being upwards fluctuation and 0's being downwards fluctuations. Something like a Boltzmann Brain. Second, Zuse-style, the universe itself could be a computer: A Turing-complete cellular automata, acting on the input formed by a random process. Third, our universe may be mental and the binary forms mental states.

> This is true whether or not a human is there to observe it and count them.

This may be true, only because human brains made it true. Objects, like apples, or apple trees, are somewhat arbitrary selections of parts of the universe (The human chose to wall off a certain subset of everything).

With a little imagination you could see the apple on the ground and the tree it fell from as one object. Why is a hair on my head part of the object "me", but the moment I pull it out, it becomes its own object? What if the apple on the ground rots away and turns to mush? Is it still its own countable object? What if a cow eats the four apples? Is there now no object, one object, or still four objects?

Your view is much closer to reasonable than mine though, because to prove that maths is a mental construct, I have to invoke scientific unpopular views, like intuitionism (maths is an advanced form of Wittgenstein's language games) or Indian/Asian mysticism (make me one with everything).

But the reason that intuitionism is unpopular, is not because we found it to be objectively untrue, but because of the very human element of Hilbert hating Brouwer's guts. If Brouwer had more clout then we may see the Law of excluded middle as untrue or unprovable, as it stands, we entered Hilbert's timeline where this law is deemed objectively true even outside of minds.

Then again, my view has no problem with "Spooky action at a distance", because I am not required to view two electrons as separate objects, and distance between arbitrary subsets is relative (owes its value) to the chosen metric, location and measurement equipment of observers.

If the sun rises I can capture this with maths and prove to you that the sun is not going down. But I forgot to add "the sun rises to me", I forgot the creative power of observation: Because for someone on the other side of earth the sun is going down. For someone in space the sun may not appear to move at all.

Re: Shut up and calculate: an extreme mathematical universe

#162
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It baffles me that people ignore the fact that they have subjectivity when making these claims. Do they? Everyone is entitled to their unquestioned assumptions as long as they state them outright and describe their parameters. I have yet to see dualists (which ultimately is at the base of this whole line of argumentation) admit that they posit subjective experience _without evidence_, since they equate asking quest…

Colors, smells, pains, etc. are not part of the mathematical or physical description, so you can't simply dismiss the problem of qualia by labelling it as dualism. Where do the colors, tastes, feels come from? What sort of math would result in those experiences? Here's another problem. You know about the physical/mathematical properties of the world by abstracting away from our experience of a world with color, sound…

To build a system like that, you need:

1. A physical phenomenon, spectrum of light in this case.

2. An entity with a retina with light perceiving cells at the right bandwidth.

3. A network that represents an invariant concept at that bandwidth without too many dependencies on object and context. However, there might be visual illusions that are hard to get rid of.

4. If the entity needs to describe this concept to others you need a(nother) network that maps the concept to a sequence of utterances that maps to vocal cords or muscle movements for a keyboard.

5. If the entity has to be able to reason about the concept it needs to be able to store it for longer times and have flexible ways to combine it with other concepts.

6. If the entity needs retrospection of this behavior it needs to have a representation of itself.

Re: Shut up and calculate: an extreme mathematical universe

#163
post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you get anything other than likely correlation from "Predictive coding in the interoceptive and control networks of the brain", and what does it have to do with physics or math? At most, you've provided a biological basis for consciousness. But why would any of that result in color, pleasure, etc?

How would anybody ever get anything other than likely correlation?

In physics there are causal explanations, and in math there are proofs. If the best you can do is correlation, then Y isn't explained by X.

Re: Shut up and calculate: an extreme mathematical universe

#164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The premise that subjectivity exists is not consistent with everything else we know without introducing additional structure to the universe that has no purpose but to stroke our egos. We must be using different definitions of subjectivity. I'm just referring to whatever one experiences at some point in time. Do you experience anything? Then you have subjectivity.

> We must be using different definitions of subjectivity. I'm just referring to whatever one experiences at some point in time. Do you experience anything? Then you have subjectivity. We are, because an ontology that takes subjectivity as primitive/irreducible is different than an ontology that reduces apparent subjectivity via third-party objective facts. You subscribe to the former, I subscribe to the latter. It is…

I'm not talking about an ontology--that concept presupposes too much already. What I'm talking about is more basic: if someone blows in your ear, do you experience anything? Whatever it is that you experience is what I mean by subjectivity. If you do not experience anything, then this universe is a much weirder place than I already thought:)

Re: Shut up and calculate: an extreme mathematical universe

#165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Colors, smells, pains, etc. are not part of the mathematical or physical description, so you can't simply dismiss the problem of qualia by labelling it as dualism. Where do the colors, tastes, feels come from? What sort of math would result in those experiences? Here's another problem. You know about the physical/mathematical properties of the world by abstracting away from our experience of a world with color, sound…

> Remove the colors and how would you know about shape, extension, mass? The same way that blind people do? > Colors, smells, pains, etc. are not part of the mathematical or physical description, so you can't simply dismiss the problem of qualia by labeling it as dualism. Where do the colors, tastes, feels come from? I'm curious: what is a concrete answer that you would find satisfying? Even if it's unrealistic, or w…

> The same way that blind people do?

Color is a stand-in for any subjective (or creature-dependant) sensation, which would include sounds and feels. Remove those and epistemology collapses.

> I'm curious: what is a concrete answer that you would find satisfying? Even if it's unrealistic, or would only work in a different universe, what sort of answer are you looking for?

I have no idea. How to explain the subjective in terms of the objective? Why does such a division exist? It's a deep metaphysical question.

Re: Shut up and calculate: an extreme mathematical universe

#166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Colors, smells, pains, etc. are not part of the mathematical or physical description, so you can't simply dismiss the problem of qualia by labelling it as dualism. Where do the colors, tastes, feels come from? What sort of math would result in those experiences? Here's another problem. You know about the physical/mathematical properties of the world by abstracting away from our experience of a world with color, sound…

> Remove the colors and how would you know about shape, extension, mass? Most of abstract mathematics and philosophy deal in concepts that have no color, shape, or mass. And yet we deal with them. We don't need to have physical grounding for every concept.

You need sensory experiences to bootstrap your way to abstract concepts. Shape has no meaning without objects. Justice has no meaning without human interaction.

Re: Shut up and calculate: an extreme mathematical universe

#167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What matters for existence is the relationships between mathematical structures. Well, that's what Structuralism is ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structuralism_(philosophy_of_s... —but it would be running in circles to say that Structuralism is the correct approach here since it would only be the correct approach if the universe is in fact made of mathematics (in other words, it would be assuming your conclusion…

> (in other words, it would be assuming your conclusion in your argument). To be convincing, it's not necessary to claim that any particular position is definitely true, I should only need to demonstrate that said position solves open problems that have not or cannot be solved by other positions while being of comparable complexity, conceptually. This is indeed the case for something like the mathematical universe ov…

There is a solution without requiring the universe be made of math: math just describes it instead. You can point out that this doesn't explain why math works so well, but I'll point out it's better not to pretend we have an answer if we really don't--then we keep looking. The idea that reality is made of math as an answer is totally lacking in justification, so sure it is technically an answer but saying the moon is made of cheese is an answer too. Not all answers are created equally.

Re: Shut up and calculate: an extreme mathematical universe

#168
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't take Tegmark's argument to be a computational theory. I took it to be an inductive one based upon the trend of the physics over the last decades towards the more and more generified multiverse theories. Ultimately, you land on a model where all consistent mathematical representations of a reality exist. At that level of abstraction, there is no where to go: it is the limit of the induction. There's a rather…

> Ultimately, you land on a model where all consistent mathematical representations of a reality exist. [...] IIRC there are no arguments about computation or what underlying medium(s) are involved, it seems like a separate question. These are actually related by Goedel's incompleteness theorems and the Curry-Howard isomorphism. Computation and mathematics are inextricably linked. The Computable Universe is a necessa…

It links a certain axiom set with computations, not all of mathematics (i.e. the set of all axiom sets), doesn’t it?

Re: Shut up and calculate: an extreme mathematical universe

#169

I can't even comprehend what the alternative viewpoint would be. The the universe isn't mathematical. A universe that doesn't obey any system of logical rules. A universe with true randomness might satisfy that literally. But random variables can be incorporated into a mathematical model. But what would it even mean for a universe to not be describable by any kind of math at all? I don't think such a concept is coher…

To be a fully random sequence, a sequence would have to contain substrings of apparent predictable beautiful order. If it didn't, it would be more predictable (you could then discard ordered continuations), not unpredictable.

> [Model-agnosticism] consists of never regarding any model or map of the universe with total 100% belief or total 100% denial. Following Korzybski, I put things in probabilities, not absolutes... My only originality lies in applying this zetetic attitude outside the hardest of the hard sciences, physics, to softer sciences and then to non-sciences like politics, ideology, jury verdicts and, of course, conspiracy theory. -- RAW

A universe isn't a map, it is the territory. An ordered universe can still be mapped/modeled with maths. A universe that is impossible to be mapped/modeled and has no predictable patterns would be an impossibly boring universe indeed (Kolmogorov Random Universe). Perhaps our brains would evolve to think more in probabilities than absolutes in such a universe. Or they could simply not be allowed to exist (intelligence requires order).

Re: Shut up and calculate: an extreme mathematical universe

#170
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right, and I also see how this obvious observation is consistently and elegantly ignored in most scientific or philosophical arguments that try and promote some totally "objective" account of reality. However, it's not really that surprising: Science over the centuries has steadily (and for it's time, justifiably) eroded the role of subjectivity in order to uncompromisingly get at what is consistently true (re…

Have you considered reinforcement learning as a paradigm that can explain the interplay of subjectivity vs objectivity? Artificial RL agents have perception, values, and can act in the world, learning how to maximize utility. They have a subjective view of the world given by their perception and value system (past learned). I think RL opens subjectivity up for examination.

AI in general (whether via RL or whichever new development that will surface) opens up a fascinating new arena for learning about how agents operate, and investigating the soft problem of consciousness (i.e, what are the type of processes and the complexity involved that is required for having an inner experience), but I stand by my assertion that it will never explain the hard problem of consciousness, and no conceptual explanation ever will.
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