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How Apple sidestepped a 2013 crackdown on its Irish tax practices

bbc.co.uk

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Re: How Apple sidestepped a 2013 crackdown on its Irish tax practices

#221

Post by valuearb »

ImSkeptical wrote: post #29
mistercow wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm always skeptical when someone precedes "close the loophole" with the word "just", especially when the entity searching for loopholes has hundreds of billions of dollars in cash. Closing loopholes is good, but they'll almost certainly find another one.

We should just keep pursuing the tax loopholes as they are discovered, they should be closed. I also think we should be lowering tax rates in conjunction with this as our tax code becomes more effective.

No, We need to eliminate corporate income taxes. They are a tax on investment and job formation.

Re: How Apple sidestepped a 2013 crackdown on its Irish tax practices

#222

Post by deadmetheny »

nautilus12 wrote: post #8
rrggrr wrote: post #2

If passed, and for a brief period of time, Trump's dollar repatriation tax scheme brings home some of the +2 trillion dollars sequestered abroad - including some of the billions Apple has parked offshore. http://www.businessinsider.com/trump-gop-tax-reform-plan-bil... There's something to be said for Apple's efforts to level the playing field against the favorable tax & public policies under which Samsung and Huawei…

So you are saying that rather than taxing the middle class more that we should simply make large corporations like Apple actually follow the existing tax laws? Owing to its source it doesn't sound like this idea is going to be popular on hacker news, in spite of its blatant rationality.

>it doesn't sound like this idea is going to be popular on hacker news, in spite of its blatant rationality

An hour later, this statement is proven hilariously accurate given the number of "rules as written having loopholes doesn't mean anyone's breaking the law" replies to this post.

Re: How Apple sidestepped a 2013 crackdown on its Irish tax practices

#223

Post by tooltalk »

rrggrr wrote: post #2

If passed, and for a brief period of time, Trump's dollar repatriation tax scheme brings home some of the +2 trillion dollars sequestered abroad - including some of the billions Apple has parked offshore. http://www.businessinsider.com/trump-gop-tax-reform-plan-bil... There's something to be said for Apple's efforts to level the playing field against the favorable tax & public policies under which Samsung and Huawei…

Can you elaborate on Samsung and Huawei's favorable tax and public policies under which they operate? Are you saying that their tax rates rates are lower?

Re: How Apple sidestepped a 2013 crackdown on its Irish tax practices

#224

Post by ali_af »

rrggrr wrote: post #2

If passed, and for a brief period of time, Trump's dollar repatriation tax scheme brings home some of the +2 trillion dollars sequestered abroad - including some of the billions Apple has parked offshore. http://www.businessinsider.com/trump-gop-tax-reform-plan-bil... There's something to be said for Apple's efforts to level the playing field against the favorable tax & public policies under which Samsung and Huawei…

Note that Cook has been vocal about repatriation and has suggested that it be mandatory to all corporations, then taxed specifically for infrastructure development.

Re: How Apple sidestepped a 2013 crackdown on its Irish tax practices

#225

Post by exelius »

osteele wrote: post #152
exelius wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I look at schemes to prevent this, it's pretty obvious that a low gross tax rate on exported goods is a net positive for a nation. But that leaves the question of how/whether to tax companies with comparatively few exports (think of telecoms as an example, where the majority of a company's total capital is physically located and impossible to move). I don't think there's much argument that a near-zero corporate ta…

There actually is a fair amount of argument [1-4] that a near-zero corporate tax rate is ideal. [5-6] argue that it isn't. (These are all, except [2], popular press articles. I imagine that there's more considered discussion in the academic literature.) [1] "Six Policies Economists Love (And Politicians Hate)", Planet Money (podcast). http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2012/07/19/157047211/six-p... . This contains int…

I'm speaking of a near-zero corporate tax rate more from a game theory perspective -- if you look at the game from the perspective of a central government, and your competitors are both the corporations and the other countries. In this case, your goal is to maximize tax revenue while minimizing "brain drain" and "legal" tax loop holes.

But regardless of what system we choose, wealth redistribution needs to be a primary goal before inequality reaches "torches and pitchforks" levels.

Re: How Apple sidestepped a 2013 crackdown on its Irish tax practices

#226

Post by jfoutz »

wildmusings wrote: post #216
canuckintime wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or the US Congress could just change the law, close the loophole and require corporations to bring the money home anyway without any tax holidays...

It seems that you're suggesting that we tax corporations on overseas income, even when reinvested overseas. That would put American companies at an extreme disadvantage compared to those from other countries, by forcing them to pay double taxes, US and foreign corporate taxes, on all income. The logical solution is to get rid of the corporate tax altogether. The only reason why it exists is to be a plank for politici…

That's fine, but all other things remaining equal, there's not as much revenue coming in. So, you need to raise capital gains tax and income tax in some proportion to retain the balance. Does that still seem easier?

Alternatively, we could cut a bunch of spending, but that turns into its own dogfight.

Re: How Apple sidestepped a 2013 crackdown on its Irish tax practices

#227

Post by deong »

DigitalJack wrote: post #94
vidarh wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing, though, is that their main "loophole" currently consists of "play chicken with the government until someone passes a tax holiday". If you make it clear there will never be a tax holiday, but that you will instead keep adjusting the rules to go after earnings withheld abroad, at some point the rational choice for them will be to bite the bullet and repatriate the income. As it is, the most rational choice f…

In this case it's not a loophole in American laws. It's a problem with European and Carribean laws. This money was earned abroad. Blame the Irish, and now whatever this Jersey Island place is. The EU made a move to close the loophole, apple found another. I suppose there are loopholes with them selling IP assets to subsidiaries. But that's a different loophole than the one with them floating money around different co…

The US government doesn't, as a general rule, care if the money has ever been here. If you as a private US citizen choose to live and work abroad, you are required to file US income taxes and declare all foreign income. And depending on the precise details of the foreign government's treaty situation and tax rates, you may be required to pay the normal US tax rate on some or all of that income.

I don't know that it counts as a "loophole" exactly that the system for corporations works the way it does. "Loophole" sort of implies an unintended consequence, when the reality is that the laws are written with the express purpose of making this type of tax avoidance possible.

Re: How Apple sidestepped a 2013 crackdown on its Irish tax practices

#228

Post by maus42 »

RingwormOne wrote: post #24

Don't fault corporations for exploiting legal loopholes to save money... They optimize what they must optimize as operating businesses, and if we the citizens want to compel them to do something we must pass the laws necessary to do so... Stop moralizing the behavior of companies. They aren't humans. If you choose not to buy apple products in reaction to their behavior, great. If you want to convince your friends to…

>Stop moralizing the behavior of companies. They aren't humans.

That is true. Companies, however, consist of humans. Make the people making the decisions to be held responsible for those decisions.

Re: How Apple sidestepped a 2013 crackdown on its Irish tax practices

#229

Post by toyg »

charlesdm wrote: post #207
_0ffh wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a British crown dependency, and afaik not the only tax haven under British rule. And it seems like there's no much the EU will be able to do about those.

Perhaps this might change after brexit though.

Yes, French and German authorities have made it known that they cannot wait for brexit to happen because it will relieve them of any need to play nice with the UK about shenanigans like these. At the same time, the Irish border problem puts the Republic of Ireland in a similar position of weakness, and they are enemy n.2 for honest tax authorities worldwide. Enemy 3 and 4 (Luxembourg and NL) have also been weakened by the disappearance of the “free trade alliance” that ran from Poland to Ireland, and when left isolated, they have been successfully bullied in the past anyway.

This is one of the very few areas where brexit might actually end up a net positive for the world at large.

Re: How Apple sidestepped a 2013 crackdown on its Irish tax practices

#230

Post by MichaelGG »

anigbrowl wrote: post #136
abritinthebay wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If they make it illegal to offshore money... ... then the US would immediately end up losing all it's multinational companies to less insane countries.

Prove it. I think companies like being in the US because of the sophisticated capital markets, strong and predictable legal environment, and deep pockets of American consumers. I'd like some evidence instead of hyperbole.

Huawei and Samsung seem to be operating in the US just fine.
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