How Apple sidestepped a 2013 crackdown on its Irish tax practices • Hacker News Board

Re: How Apple sidestepped a 2013 crackdown on its Irish tax practices

#51

Post by MisterBastahrd » Mon, Nov 06, 2017, 6:58 PM UTC

sol_remmy wrote: post #30

komali2 wrote: post #5

If you unplugged Apple's board (or given decision-making apparatus) and plugged in a (currently nonexistent) AI with the parameter "Maximize Profit," would you see a different result? I think not. I think we'd see things far more morally horrifying, in fact, with just enough PR makeup to ensure "maximized profit." Unsure why we laud capitalism and then act horrified at the result. Here in America we've made our decis…

If you unplugged the government's board (or given decision-making apparatus) and plugged in a (currently nonexistent) AI with the parameter "Maximize Power of Government," would you see a different result? I think not. ----- My point is that you are implying government is the alternative ("they will govern morally! academics will keep them in check! journalists will keep them in check!") then you need to rethink your…

Your reply is pure libertarian silliness.

The government hasn't remotely maximized its power.

Re: How Apple sidestepped a 2013 crackdown on its Irish tax practices

#52

Post by aaron-lebo » Mon, Nov 06, 2017, 6:58 PM UTC

sol_remmy wrote: post #30

komali2 wrote: post #5

If you unplugged Apple's board (or given decision-making apparatus) and plugged in a (currently nonexistent) AI with the parameter "Maximize Profit," would you see a different result? I think not. I think we'd see things far more morally horrifying, in fact, with just enough PR makeup to ensure "maximized profit." Unsure why we laud capitalism and then act horrified at the result. Here in America we've made our decis…

If you unplugged the government's board (or given decision-making apparatus) and plugged in a (currently nonexistent) AI with the parameter "Maximize Power of Government," would you see a different result? I think not. ----- My point is that you are implying government is the alternative ("they will govern morally! academics will keep them in check! journalists will keep them in check!") then you need to rethink your…

Didn't see that implication. Isn't the more obvious solution to have a mixture of effective government and business? We're not talking about going from capitalism to communism, we're asking one of the wealthiest companies in the world to pay their fair share of taxes like the person making $40k does. It's not either or.

Re: How Apple sidestepped a 2013 crackdown on its Irish tax practices

#53

Post by klodolph » Mon, Nov 06, 2017, 6:58 PM UTC

sol_remmy wrote: post #30

komali2 wrote: post #5

If you unplugged Apple's board (or given decision-making apparatus) and plugged in a (currently nonexistent) AI with the parameter "Maximize Profit," would you see a different result? I think not. I think we'd see things far more morally horrifying, in fact, with just enough PR makeup to ensure "maximized profit." Unsure why we laud capitalism and then act horrified at the result. Here in America we've made our decis…

If you unplugged the government's board (or given decision-making apparatus) and plugged in a (currently nonexistent) AI with the parameter "Maximize Power of Government," would you see a different result? I think not. ----- My point is that you are implying government is the alternative ("they will govern morally! academics will keep them in check! journalists will keep them in check!") then you need to rethink your…

How are you inferring that government is the alternative? I don't see that implication.

Re: How Apple sidestepped a 2013 crackdown on its Irish tax practices

#54

Post by slavik81 » Mon, Nov 06, 2017, 6:58 PM UTC

pjc50 wrote: post #25

slavik81 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's your proposed rule that would close the loophole? I don't think it's actually possible.

"Any kind of business or financial transfer or ownership of assets or beneficiary interest in the Cayman Islands (Etc) is a criminal offence"?

That's insufficient. Most of the world has a lower corporate tax rate than the United States. The Cayman Islands might be the most attractive place to park their funds, but pretty much anywhere would still be more attractive than bringing it to the US.

Re: How Apple sidestepped a 2013 crackdown on its Irish tax practices

#55

Post by mitchty » Mon, Nov 06, 2017, 6:58 PM UTC

GCU-Empiricist wrote: post #34

komali2 wrote: post #5

If you unplugged Apple's board (or given decision-making apparatus) and plugged in a (currently nonexistent) AI with the parameter "Maximize Profit," would you see a different result? I think not. I think we'd see things far more morally horrifying, in fact, with just enough PR makeup to ensure "maximized profit." Unsure why we laud capitalism and then act horrified at the result. Here in America we've made our decis…

Isn't that a board's fiduciary duty to their stockholders? To put it differently would you buy stock in a board that doesn't act this way, would a mutual fund? Which way do you expect the mutual fund's proxies to vote when electing the board? Multi-polar coordination (competition markets) have a lot of bad Nash-equilibrium states, but they are better than any command market in history.

No, it is not a boards fiduciary duty to maximize profits at the expense of all else for stockholders. This is a myth.

There is no legal basis for this claim.

https://hbr.org/2010/04/the-myth-of-shareholder-capitalism

So to take your differently put question, would I buy stock in a company that doesn't act this way? Hell yes I would. It means they're likely adults and not just looking out purely for the bottom line. Which tends to lead to bad results.

Re: How Apple sidestepped a 2013 crackdown on its Irish tax practices

#56

Post by jimmaswell » Mon, Nov 06, 2017, 6:59 PM UTC

sol_remmy wrote: post #30

komali2 wrote: post #5

If you unplugged Apple's board (or given decision-making apparatus) and plugged in a (currently nonexistent) AI with the parameter "Maximize Profit," would you see a different result? I think not. I think we'd see things far more morally horrifying, in fact, with just enough PR makeup to ensure "maximized profit." Unsure why we laud capitalism and then act horrified at the result. Here in America we've made our decis…

If you unplugged the government's board (or given decision-making apparatus) and plugged in a (currently nonexistent) AI with the parameter "Maximize Power of Government," would you see a different result? I think not. ----- My point is that you are implying government is the alternative ("they will govern morally! academics will keep them in check! journalists will keep them in check!") then you need to rethink your…

Tighter corporate tax regulations as a slippery slope to government oppression? I'm not seeing it.

Re: How Apple sidestepped a 2013 crackdown on its Irish tax practices

#57

Post by tasty_freeze » Mon, Nov 06, 2017, 6:59 PM UTC

fleitz wrote: post #40

komali2 wrote: post #5

If you unplugged Apple's board (or given decision-making apparatus) and plugged in a (currently nonexistent) AI with the parameter "Maximize Profit," would you see a different result? I think not. I think we'd see things far more morally horrifying, in fact, with just enough PR makeup to ensure "maximized profit." Unsure why we laud capitalism and then act horrified at the result. Here in America we've made our decis…

I've never understood why is it greed to want to keep your own money, but not greed to want someone else's.

We have a system of taxation. I pay my share. I expect others to pay there share. But when the other has found some legal loophole (perhaps one they helped to put in place or at least to maintain) and avoid paying their share, then yes, I'm upset and I want them to pay their share.

Why do you try to cast this as a matter of greed. Apple is getting billions of dollars in benefits from being a US-based company, directly and indirectly.

Re: How Apple sidestepped a 2013 crackdown on its Irish tax practices

#58

Post by bitL » Mon, Nov 06, 2017, 6:59 PM UTC

komali2 wrote: post #5

If you unplugged Apple's board (or given decision-making apparatus) and plugged in a (currently nonexistent) AI with the parameter "Maximize Profit," would you see a different result? I think not. I think we'd see things far more morally horrifying, in fact, with just enough PR makeup to ensure "maximized profit." Unsure why we laud capitalism and then act horrified at the result. Here in America we've made our decis…

Seems like we need some government-business GAN to keep each other at check...

Re: How Apple sidestepped a 2013 crackdown on its Irish tax practices

#59

Post by munk-a » Mon, Nov 06, 2017, 7:00 PM UTC

mistercow wrote: post #7

canuckintime wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or the US Congress could just change the law, close the loophole and require corporations to bring the money home anyway without any tax holidays...

I'm always skeptical when someone precedes "close the loophole" with the word "just", especially when the entity searching for loopholes has hundreds of billions of dollars in cash. Closing loopholes is good, but they'll almost certainly find another one.

This reads a bit fatalist, why don't we close this particular loophole and deal with the next when it comes along. This may be a game of whack-a-mole but we're never going to have a sane tax code if we don't start killing some moles.

If anyone is knowledgeable in accounting and wants to point out some future loopholes that may arise, sure we can get those as well but... don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

Re: How Apple sidestepped a 2013 crackdown on its Irish tax practices

#60

Post by tomxor » Mon, Nov 06, 2017, 7:01 PM UTC

RingwormOne wrote: post #24

Don't fault corporations for exploiting legal loopholes to save money... They optimize what they must optimize as operating businesses, and if we the citizens want to compel them to do something we must pass the laws necessary to do so... Stop moralizing the behavior of companies. They aren't humans. If you choose not to buy apple products in reaction to their behavior, great. If you want to convince your friends to…

Law is not just a set of confining rules like a programming language, exploiting loop holes has moral consequences.

Corporations are run by humans, some of those humans must ultimately answer for crimes of tax evasion. Just like the VW executive who is currently doing prison time for other corporate crimes (technically their vehicles passed the required tests).

Some people would prefer more than this to prevent scapegoating. i.e corporate death penalty... liquidation selling off the assets to the competition, dividing the result between the parties (government, citizens etc) defrauded or harmed. Unfortunately this will never happen with this size of company due to the impact it would have on the economy. The best we can hope for is government intervention, i.e impede company freedoms in proportion to it's crimes, much like a criminal record hurts an individual's job prospects. This would also make strategically immoral profit less attractive (Think of the Fight Club car recall equation).