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How Apple sidestepped a 2013 crackdown on its Irish tax practices

bbc.co.uk

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Re: How Apple sidestepped a 2013 crackdown on its Irish tax practices

#21

Post by pjc50 »

canuckintime wrote: post #4
rrggrr wrote: post #2

If passed, and for a brief period of time, Trump's dollar repatriation tax scheme brings home some of the +2 trillion dollars sequestered abroad - including some of the billions Apple has parked offshore. http://www.businessinsider.com/trump-gop-tax-reform-plan-bil... There's something to be said for Apple's efforts to level the playing field against the favorable tax & public policies under which Samsung and Huawei…

Or the US Congress could just change the law, close the loophole and require corporations to bring the money home anyway without any tax holidays...

Indeed. Doing business with the tax havens is a choice in the same way that refusing to do business with Iran is a choice.

The tax havens are almost all small islands that are dependent on food and fuel imports. Iran-level sanctions would collapse them in a week.

Re: How Apple sidestepped a 2013 crackdown on its Irish tax practices

#23

Post by fredley »

komali2 wrote: post #5

If you unplugged Apple's board (or given decision-making apparatus) and plugged in a (currently nonexistent) AI with the parameter "Maximize Profit," would you see a different result? I think not. I think we'd see things far more morally horrifying, in fact, with just enough PR makeup to ensure "maximized profit." Unsure why we laud capitalism and then act horrified at the result. Here in America we've made our decis…

This is not the fault of Capitalism alone. In a healthy democracy, the people vote in the Government, who can impose fines, tariffs, penalties and such on companies and business practices that the people (via the people they elect) deem to be working against them. Sadly, as you point out, this creates a direct incentive to lobby or otherwise attempt to control Government by large and powerful companies. The only way to prevent this is to impose fines, tariffs and penalties on businesses undertaking this behaviour (effectively disincentivising it financially), since it fundamentally unbalances the power dynamic between Government and business. However if you've got nobody left to elect who will fight that corner for you, you're kinda stuck.

Re: How Apple sidestepped a 2013 crackdown on its Irish tax practices

#24

Post by RingwormOne »

Don't fault corporations for exploiting legal loopholes to save money... They optimize what they must optimize as operating businesses, and if we the citizens want to compel them to do something we must pass the laws necessary to do so...

Stop moralizing the behavior of companies. They aren't humans.

If you choose not to buy apple products in reaction to their behavior, great. If you want to convince your friends to do the same, great. But legal repercussions are reserved for law breaking entities. Loophole exploitation is not law breaking.

Re: How Apple sidestepped a 2013 crackdown on its Irish tax practices

#25

Post by pjc50 »

slavik81 wrote: post #9
canuckintime wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or the US Congress could just change the law, close the loophole and require corporations to bring the money home anyway without any tax holidays...

What's your proposed rule that would close the loophole? I don't think it's actually possible.

"Any kind of business or financial transfer or ownership of assets or beneficiary interest in the Cayman Islands (Etc) is a criminal offence"?

Re: How Apple sidestepped a 2013 crackdown on its Irish tax practices

#26

Post by aaron-lebo »

colemannugent wrote: post #13
komali2 wrote: post #5

If you unplugged Apple's board (or given decision-making apparatus) and plugged in a (currently nonexistent) AI with the parameter "Maximize Profit," would you see a different result? I think not. I think we'd see things far more morally horrifying, in fact, with just enough PR makeup to ensure "maximized profit." Unsure why we laud capitalism and then act horrified at the result. Here in America we've made our decis…

I see your point about the bad side of capitalism, but consider that this kind of abuse is only possible because the governments allow it. No economic system can live up to its design when corrupt governments interfere with it.

governments allow it

corrupt governments interfere with it

Are those not in opposition? Another solution is a better breed of business that doesn't see $ as the most important thing in the world, but not sure how you change that. Capitalism can and should be a conduit for innovation without outright greed.

Re: How Apple sidestepped a 2013 crackdown on its Irish tax practices

#27

Post by nilved »

colemannugent wrote: post #13
komali2 wrote: post #5

If you unplugged Apple's board (or given decision-making apparatus) and plugged in a (currently nonexistent) AI with the parameter "Maximize Profit," would you see a different result? I think not. I think we'd see things far more morally horrifying, in fact, with just enough PR makeup to ensure "maximized profit." Unsure why we laud capitalism and then act horrified at the result. Here in America we've made our decis…

I see your point about the bad side of capitalism, but consider that this kind of abuse is only possible because the governments allow it. No economic system can live up to its design when corrupt governments interfere with it.

Except anarchism, of course.

Re: How Apple sidestepped a 2013 crackdown on its Irish tax practices

#28

Post by vidarh »

mistercow wrote: post #7
canuckintime wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or the US Congress could just change the law, close the loophole and require corporations to bring the money home anyway without any tax holidays...

I'm always skeptical when someone precedes "close the loophole" with the word "just", especially when the entity searching for loopholes has hundreds of billions of dollars in cash. Closing loopholes is good, but they'll almost certainly find another one.

The thing, though, is that their main "loophole" currently consists of "play chicken with the government until someone passes a tax holiday". If you make it clear there will never be a tax holiday, but that you will instead keep adjusting the rules to go after earnings withheld abroad, at some point the rational choice for them will be to bite the bullet and repatriate the income.

As it is, the most rational choice for them is to keep waiting for that amnesty/tax holiday unless they badly need the cash.

Re: How Apple sidestepped a 2013 crackdown on its Irish tax practices

#29

Post by ImSkeptical »

mistercow wrote: post #7
canuckintime wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or the US Congress could just change the law, close the loophole and require corporations to bring the money home anyway without any tax holidays...

I'm always skeptical when someone precedes "close the loophole" with the word "just", especially when the entity searching for loopholes has hundreds of billions of dollars in cash. Closing loopholes is good, but they'll almost certainly find another one.

We should just keep pursuing the tax loopholes as they are discovered, they should be closed. I also think we should be lowering tax rates in conjunction with this as our tax code becomes more effective.

Re: How Apple sidestepped a 2013 crackdown on its Irish tax practices

#30

Post by sol_remmy »

komali2 wrote: post #5

If you unplugged Apple's board (or given decision-making apparatus) and plugged in a (currently nonexistent) AI with the parameter "Maximize Profit," would you see a different result? I think not. I think we'd see things far more morally horrifying, in fact, with just enough PR makeup to ensure "maximized profit." Unsure why we laud capitalism and then act horrified at the result. Here in America we've made our decis…

If you unplugged the government's board (or given decision-making apparatus) and plugged in a (currently nonexistent) AI with the parameter "Maximize Power of Government," would you see a different result? I think not.

-----

My point is that you are implying government is the alternative ("they will govern morally! academics will keep them in check! journalists will keep them in check!") then you need to rethink your conclusions

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