How slot machines are designed to be addictive • Hacker News Board

Re: How slot machines are designed to be addictive

#131

Post by matwood » Mon, Nov 06, 2017, 1:31 PM UTC

CPLX wrote: post #126

jerf wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I write this, I think you have a typo there; 94-97% payout on $1000 is $940-970. (But I am confident it is just a typo.) And you sort of state this, but I'd empasize that's per spin ; for a $1 spin, the casino expects to make 5 cents and give back 95 cents... but then they expect you to put those 95 cents right back in with high probability, meaning that you can now expect .9025 of the original dollar, which again…

The "right" way to gamble is to decide how much fun gambling is and how much it's worth to you and then spend that amount. Like for example I could go skydiving for $350 or play a few hours of blackjack and poker for that much and decide to choose the latter. So you spend that much to get the expected result. Sometimes you bust out quickly, sometimes you make money, just like sometimes you see a bad movie or concert…

Exactly! I love playing craps. The ups and downs are a big rush, plus it is super social. I set my personal limits pretty low so I cannot play much anymore in the bigger casinos where minimums are $25+. Find a smaller casino with $2 minimums, a rowdy crowd, and it's a great time :)

Re: How slot machines are designed to be addictive

#132

Post by moduspol » Mon, Nov 06, 2017, 1:42 PM UTC

phil248 wrote: post #21

byron_fast wrote: post #18

It may be this stuff is true for current slot machines, but it isn't immediately obvious if you try one. In fact, current slot machines are an incoherent mess. When I played recently, I couldn't tell whether I had a near-miss or even a win until credits counted upward. I couldn't feel any excitement because I didn't know what was going on. It would have taken me several hundred dollars worth of play to even understan…

I'be had the same experience, though you will start to get the hang of more complicated machines after a couple dozen spins. I wonder if that complexity adds to the allure. "Now that I understand this complicated machine, I better not let that that hard earned knowledge go to waste"

I definitely felt that way about three card poker (a common table game) when I first started playing. It ends up, though, that optimal strategy is as simple as just playing Q-6-4 or better. [1]

I think these things are all about making it seem complicated up front so that when you start getting the hang of it, it feels like you might understand something other players don't.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_card_poker

Re: How slot machines are designed to be addictive

#133

Post by tudorw » Mon, Nov 06, 2017, 1:51 PM UTC

If you're a parent, you can play this strategy on your children, instead of a simple star reward chart, where good task = reward, reward spuriously and without cue, when you reward them, tell them you know they are always trying hard to do the right thing and are proud of how often they make a good choice, maybe point out something they could have done better if it's recent enough to be recalled... With a star chart children are adept at learning the minimum requirements for reward, and the point of the reward, for good behaviour, is lost in the game...

Re: How slot machines are designed to be addictive

#134

Post by 794CD01 » Mon, Nov 06, 2017, 1:54 PM UTC

halhen wrote: post #78

smallstepforman wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Human psychology studies are a tricky thing, where everyone only focuses on data which matches their preconceived notions. I'm sure that some university group has researched the cost of fashion addiction, music addiction, car addiction, holiday addiction etc. yet no-one is talking about the social cost of fashion/collections/other vices people may have. There was a large Casino court case in Australia a couple of mon…

Well, Gambling Disorder is a recognized psychological diagnosis in DSM 5[0], so I guess the reader will have to weigh the credibility of the industry's claims vs all the other evidence around. Also, from your comments I assume you rarely meet a representative sample of your customers. I did, and that experience ALSO matched my other claims. You do you of course, and I know where you're coming from: I too built gambli…

Something being a recognized diagnosis is not meaningful on its own. The nature of medical documentation and its ties to payment in the US and interoperability everywhere means structured, defined codes are needed for everything that could conceivably occur. That is why there are also special codes for other problems like your subsequent encounter with being sucked into a jet engine, or wounds sustained in a jetski accident that occurred while you were on fire.

Re: How slot machines are designed to be addictive

#135

Post by freeloop3 » Mon, Nov 06, 2017, 1:56 PM UTC

sigi45 wrote: post #116

smallstepforman wrote: post #60

Disclaimer: I design the machines and games for a living. 1) regarding near miss, with basic math knowledge you can easily calculate the odds of near miss. Eg. with 2 special symbols per 30 symbol reel, for a 3x5 reel game, you have a 1:5 chance of seeing the special symbol per reel, or once per spin for a 5 reel game. The odds of a 4 symbol near miss is (1:5)^4, which is 1:625, or once every 30 minutes. With a bank…

No people don't enjoy it. If they do its your fault, that they enjoy sitting in front of a machine and pressing a button. You are part of the problem. I really mean this. You are similar to a drug dealer, weapons producer or similar people. You are part of an Industrie no one needs and makes our society a little bit less good every day. And yes everyone taking part in one way or another is responsible for it.

There are some people, you know, that don't have the physical ability to do much else to get the same amount of entertainment in their lives.

Casinos are a boon to seniors, giving them a chance to go somewhere where they can actually enjoy themselves with worrying too much.

Jesus, how many sharp edges to we have to round over to make sure that adults live a "safe" life, according to your standards?

Re: How slot machines are designed to be addictive

#136

Post by lostboys67 » Mon, Nov 06, 2017, 1:58 PM UTC

YeOakAye wrote: post #83

mschuster91 wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember reading an article years ago where a video-poker machine manufacturer "trained" the machine using real playing behavior of famous poker stars... For German machines I can say they're not a target market for ML or other "experimental" stuff given the ultra strict regulations here. More or less illegal online casinos however are the new Wild West of the gambling industry.

Video poker and the type of poker played by 'famous poker stars' (Texas Hold'em generally, if it's televised) are entirely different things.

And technically Poker isn't gambling as the outcome is not random like wise horse racing.

Re: How slot machines are designed to be addictive

#137

Post by pc86 » Mon, Nov 06, 2017, 2:06 PM UTC

hollander wrote: post #117

kopos wrote: post #113

Sadly, the article does disservice to a lot of actual mechanics of the industry. And the amount of hard work that goes on to actually makes these games addictive. It is not for no reason that these are called one-armed bandits. * This industry is highly regulated; but it rarely does help those really in need. If the regulations were very strictly implemented (player wager limits, player time controls, self-regulation…

With a mechanical slot machine I can understand the reel thing. But with electronic screens, software making up reels, how do I know that the software does not fool me even more? Take the given example with first slot 1/16, second 1/32 and third 1/44 chance of winning big. Now assume the generated numbers are really random, and that day or week the machine has given two big prices. Then a third big number combination…

Gambling software in casinos is regulated extremely closely.

Re: How slot machines are designed to be addictive

#138

Post by jjawssd » Mon, Nov 06, 2017, 2:06 PM UTC

sigi45 wrote: post #116

smallstepforman wrote: post #60

Disclaimer: I design the machines and games for a living. 1) regarding near miss, with basic math knowledge you can easily calculate the odds of near miss. Eg. with 2 special symbols per 30 symbol reel, for a 3x5 reel game, you have a 1:5 chance of seeing the special symbol per reel, or once per spin for a 5 reel game. The odds of a 4 symbol near miss is (1:5)^4, which is 1:625, or once every 30 minutes. With a bank…

No people don't enjoy it. If they do its your fault, that they enjoy sitting in front of a machine and pressing a button. You are part of the problem. I really mean this. You are similar to a drug dealer, weapons producer or similar people. You are part of an Industrie no one needs and makes our society a little bit less good every day. And yes everyone taking part in one way or another is responsible for it.

Tell us more about your ideal society where everything is harmless.

Re: How slot machines are designed to be addictive

#139

Post by pc86 » Mon, Nov 06, 2017, 2:12 PM UTC

albertgoeswoof wrote: post #72

smallstepforman wrote: post #60

Disclaimer: I design the machines and games for a living. 1) regarding near miss, with basic math knowledge you can easily calculate the odds of near miss. Eg. with 2 special symbols per 30 symbol reel, for a 3x5 reel game, you have a 1:5 chance of seeing the special symbol per reel, or once per spin for a 5 reel game. The odds of a 4 symbol near miss is (1:5)^4, which is 1:625, or once every 30 minutes. With a bank…

> Its not planned, it just works out that way Oh come on, this is some doublethink if ever I saw it. > Every 6th employee in the industry would also be addicted No- the employees would be out of a job if the addicts werent in there, they see both sides of the coin, winners and losers, and have a completely different perspective on gambling. If anything I’d expect employees to be more immune to addiction than anything…

There is an important distinction between "program these 30 machines such that every 5 someone gets a pay out" and "program this machine such that 1 out of every n pulls is a pay out."

Re: How slot machines are designed to be addictive

#140

Post by Geekette » Mon, Nov 06, 2017, 2:13 PM UTC

smallstepforman wrote: post #60

Disclaimer: I design the machines and games for a living. 1) regarding near miss, with basic math knowledge you can easily calculate the odds of near miss. Eg. with 2 special symbols per 30 symbol reel, for a 3x5 reel game, you have a 1:5 chance of seeing the special symbol per reel, or once per spin for a 5 reel game. The odds of a 4 symbol near miss is (1:5)^4, which is 1:625, or once every 30 minutes. With a bank…

"...if the stats the media are stating is correct, every 6th employee in the industry would also be addicted (using the definition of addiction used from chemical substance abuse). Since there is no measurable difference in addiction levels for employees (who spend 40hrs per week interacting with slots) and players who spend less time, the addiction argument looses its basis.

Your premise is false: The article states the serious addiction rate as 1 in 6 people who play the slots regularly based on Australian govt statistics.

Also, employees paid to interact with slots for work purposes (building, testing, QA, etc) are not equivalent to other people who proactively go to casinos and pay to play for leisure purposes.