How slot machines are designed to be addictive • Hacker News Board

Re: How slot machines are designed to be addictive

#81

Post by salvar » Mon, Nov 06, 2017, 9:38 AM UTC

smallstepforman wrote: post #76

halhen wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having worked with data analytics in problem gambling for ten years, your dismissal of the addictiveness of these games is either uninformed or rationalized, most likely both. Recent research in Sweden shows that some 75% of online casino turnover are from what can be loosely described as moderate risk gambling (PGSI3+) and approximately 50% from problem gambling (PGSI8+). Similarly about 25% of regular (monthly) pla…

Human psychology studies are a tricky thing, where everyone only focuses on data which matches their preconceived notions. I'm sure that some university group has researched the cost of fashion addiction, music addiction, car addiction, holiday addiction etc. yet no-one is talking about the social cost of fashion/collections/other vices people may have. There was a large Casino court case in Australia a couple of mon…

Are you completely dismissing all human psychology studies as fraudulent?

Re: How slot machines are designed to be addictive

#82

Post by frik » Mon, Nov 06, 2017, 9:39 AM UTC

Video games in the Free2Play niche inherited a lot of slot machine and casino gamification mechanics. Now even proper video games of the triple-A full prize segment $70 come with "loot boxes", helix points, DLCs, trading cards, always-online that unnerves the greater audience but a few (rich) noobs (so called "whales") get sucked/addicted in and pay tausends of dollars for virtual goods additionally to the full prize game. Former sound gameplay mechanic got changed and dumped down to incorporate the gamification mechanics into proper full prize games, where formerly skill played a major role, it's now "invested time" to play ("grind") or to pay real money for shortcuts, to reduce the time to collect the virtual currency. Games like Forza 7, Assassin's Creed Origin, Diablo 3, NBA 2k17, and many more from big publishers feature such addictive gambling slot machine mechanics.

Loot boxes have reached a new low with Forza 7’s “pay to earn” option: https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2017/09/loot-boxes-have-reach...

Loot boxes in video games will soon get a review flag from OpenCritic: https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2017/10/loot-boxes-in-video-g...

China will force games with loot boxes to publicly expose their drop rates and probabilities: https://www.vg247.com/2016/12/08/china-will-force-games-with...

UK Government Responds to Loot Boxes as Gambling Petition: http://www.kotaku.co.uk/2017/10/19/uk-government-responds-to...

Re: How slot machines are designed to be addictive

#83

Post by YeOakAye » Mon, Nov 06, 2017, 9:43 AM UTC

mschuster91 wrote: post #4

creaghpatr wrote: post #2

Addiction by Design is a book that takes a really comprehensive look at slot machine design it’s pretty wild how much thought is put into it and this is before ML became practical, I’m sure casino company’s are leveraging it now.

I remember reading an article years ago where a video-poker machine manufacturer "trained" the machine using real playing behavior of famous poker stars... For German machines I can say they're not a target market for ML or other "experimental" stuff given the ultra strict regulations here. More or less illegal online casinos however are the new Wild West of the gambling industry.

Video poker and the type of poker played by 'famous poker stars' (Texas Hold'em generally, if it's televised) are entirely different things.

Re: How slot machines are designed to be addictive

#84

Post by YeGoblynQueenne » Mon, Nov 06, 2017, 9:48 AM UTC

smallstepforman wrote: post #60

Disclaimer: I design the machines and games for a living. 1) regarding near miss, with basic math knowledge you can easily calculate the odds of near miss. Eg. with 2 special symbols per 30 symbol reel, for a 3x5 reel game, you have a 1:5 chance of seeing the special symbol per reel, or once per spin for a 5 reel game. The odds of a 4 symbol near miss is (1:5)^4, which is 1:625, or once every 30 minutes. With a bank…

About point number (4)

I don't think anyone said you have psychologists on call. Slot machines have been around for hundreds of years. Obviously, someone has figured out how to best make them work. The industry clearly has the know-how to make addictive games that hook players in: if it didn't, then its machines would not be as addictive as they are. Unless we want to pretend the machines got so addictive by chance, alone.

About point number (2)

I really don't get what you mean here. Do you mean industry employees are gamblers themselves, or that they gamble as part of their job? I'd appreciate a clarification.

About point number (5)

I don't gabmle and I've never played any slots. The reason for this is that I can tell there's no way to come on top. If I play slots and win more than the house wins, then the house is losing money. So for slots machines to be profitable, players have to lose moeny. And if they weren't profitable, there wouldn't be any of them around. Since there are, it must mean players lose their money.

So the people who gamble on slots either: (a) don't realise they can't win, or (b) can't help themselves despite knowing.

That doesn't sound to me like an activity in which informed, responsible adults engage.

Re: How slot machines are designed to be addictive

#85

Post by YeGoblynQueenne » Mon, Nov 06, 2017, 9:49 AM UTC

To make matters worse, after all this effort to hook players in with a promise of a win just around the corner, it seems that casinos often don't pay up when players win big. Instead, they blame jackpots on malfunctions.

Three cases of this from Ars:

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/10/1-4-million-jack...

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/06/sorry-maam-you-d...

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015/04/sorry-grandma-th...

The incomprehensible thing is that courts have stood behind the casinos in such cases.

Re: How slot machines are designed to be addictive

#86

Post by retsibsi » Mon, Nov 06, 2017, 9:53 AM UTC

smallstepforman wrote: post #76

halhen wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having worked with data analytics in problem gambling for ten years, your dismissal of the addictiveness of these games is either uninformed or rationalized, most likely both. Recent research in Sweden shows that some 75% of online casino turnover are from what can be loosely described as moderate risk gambling (PGSI3+) and approximately 50% from problem gambling (PGSI8+). Similarly about 25% of regular (monthly) pla…

Human psychology studies are a tricky thing, where everyone only focuses on data which matches their preconceived notions. I'm sure that some university group has researched the cost of fashion addiction, music addiction, car addiction, holiday addiction etc. yet no-one is talking about the social cost of fashion/collections/other vices people may have. There was a large Casino court case in Australia a couple of mon…

Do you agree that 'problem' or 'compulsive' gambling (Wiki: "an urge to gamble continuously despite harmful negative consequences or a desire to stop") is (a) real, (b) responsible for a significant portion of your industry's profits, and (c) responsible for a great deal of human misery?

If you agree that it is real, what distinction are you drawing between compulsive gambling and gambling addiction, and why is that distinction important?

Re: How slot machines are designed to be addictive

#87

Post by csydas » Mon, Nov 06, 2017, 9:55 AM UTC

smallstepforman wrote: post #60

Disclaimer: I design the machines and games for a living. 1) regarding near miss, with basic math knowledge you can easily calculate the odds of near miss. Eg. with 2 special symbols per 30 symbol reel, for a 3x5 reel game, you have a 1:5 chance of seeing the special symbol per reel, or once per spin for a 5 reel game. The odds of a 4 symbol near miss is (1:5)^4, which is 1:625, or once every 30 minutes. With a bank…

> 5) its a voluntery activity. There are lots of people who enjoy the activity, the excitement, the thrill, etc and they’re responsible enough to only wager less than the cost of a theatre ticket. Sometimes they finish the night with more money than they brought in. Its a regulated activity for adults.

I'm not really sure that it's voluntary. My last several trips to Vegas I was surprised by the new number of pamphlets placed just about everywhere around the casinos (probably by law) that state in very short and simple terms how bad your odds of winning are and that gambling is not meant for making money, but it doesn't seem to stop the wave of sad stories in any way - there's an addictive quality to the games, the same that keeps kids spending hundreds or thousands on loot boxes in games.

It's predatory, and yes, the gambler themselves do need to make the effort to show restraint, it's not really something that's easily controlled for a lot of the population. I'd posit that those who are able to take the hit of a loss have the same problem and addiction as those who can't take the hit of a loss; they're chasing the same high and the same result, it's just that one has a more generous buffer for failure than the other. Both are equally susceptible to over-spending.

Re: How slot machines are designed to be addictive

#88

Post by moonbug22 » Mon, Nov 06, 2017, 10:10 AM UTC

smallstepforman wrote: post #60

Disclaimer: I design the machines and games for a living. 1) regarding near miss, with basic math knowledge you can easily calculate the odds of near miss. Eg. with 2 special symbols per 30 symbol reel, for a 3x5 reel game, you have a 1:5 chance of seeing the special symbol per reel, or once per spin for a 5 reel game. The odds of a 4 symbol near miss is (1:5)^4, which is 1:625, or once every 30 minutes. With a bank…

Go do something worthwhile with your life.

Re: How slot machines are designed to be addictive

#89

Post by red75prime » Mon, Nov 06, 2017, 10:15 AM UTC

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #84

smallstepforman wrote: post #60

Disclaimer: I design the machines and games for a living. 1) regarding near miss, with basic math knowledge you can easily calculate the odds of near miss. Eg. with 2 special symbols per 30 symbol reel, for a 3x5 reel game, you have a 1:5 chance of seeing the special symbol per reel, or once per spin for a 5 reel game. The odds of a 4 symbol near miss is (1:5)^4, which is 1:625, or once every 30 minutes. With a bank…

About point number (4) I don't think anyone said you have psychologists on call. Slot machines have been around for hundreds of years. Obviously, someone has figured out how to best make them work. The industry clearly has the know-how to make addictive games that hook players in: if it didn't, then its machines would not be as addictive as they are. Unless we want to pretend the machines got so addictive by chance,…

Utility of money is nonlinear, so it could be rational to throw out a small amount of money for the expectation of large payoff. Of course, it means you should never play again, when you have thrown out sufficiently large quantity of money.

Re: How slot machines are designed to be addictive

#90

Post by xwvvvvwx » Mon, Nov 06, 2017, 10:20 AM UTC

vim_wannabe wrote: post #65

xwvvvvwx wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, I guess you have to think like that to do the work you do, but are you really disputing the existence of gambling addiction? It seems like a pretty well documented phenomena by now.

>I guess you have to think like that to do the work you do I don't think you need to start this on a free to play/social networking site/on-line shopping developer forum.

Yeah that was a bit much. Shouldn’t post before I’ve had my coffee.