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How slot machines are designed to be addictive

theguardian.com

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Re: How slot machines are designed to be addictive

#71

Post by mr_turtle »

smallstepforman wrote: post #60

Disclaimer: I design the machines and games for a living. 1) regarding near miss, with basic math knowledge you can easily calculate the odds of near miss. Eg. with 2 special symbols per 30 symbol reel, for a 3x5 reel game, you have a 1:5 chance of seeing the special symbol per reel, or once per spin for a 5 reel game. The odds of a 4 symbol near miss is (1:5)^4, which is 1:625, or once every 30 minutes. With a bank…

2. I used to work in the gaming industry too (not slots). If you're on the other side you just realize in the long run gambling is a losing proposition so you won't be pursuing the activity as hard. Also that job is a consistent stream of income.

3. Yes, but they are designed to be as addictive as possible. I'm quite appalled by online slots (Android, iPhone) where no money is at stake, but coins can be purchased, and the amount of coins purchasable is adjusted based on how much you play. I'm thinking Zynga based games primarily.

5. That's fair but a weak argument. 100% of people who go to the theatre or eat out spend money, but the amount is fixed and known up front. I guess you can say the same for slots when the payout percentage is up front, but still, Vegas wasn't built by giving away money.

Re: How slot machines are designed to be addictive

#72

Post by albertgoeswoof »

smallstepforman wrote: post #60

Disclaimer: I design the machines and games for a living. 1) regarding near miss, with basic math knowledge you can easily calculate the odds of near miss. Eg. with 2 special symbols per 30 symbol reel, for a 3x5 reel game, you have a 1:5 chance of seeing the special symbol per reel, or once per spin for a 5 reel game. The odds of a 4 symbol near miss is (1:5)^4, which is 1:625, or once every 30 minutes. With a bank…

> Its not planned, it just works out that way

Oh come on, this is some doublethink if ever I saw it.

> Every 6th employee in the industry would also be addicted

No- the employees would be out of a job if the addicts werent in there, they see both sides of the coin, winners and losers, and have a completely different perspective on gambling. If anything I’d expect employees to be more immune to addiction than anything else.

Your arguments 4 & 5 can be applied directly to hard drugs without modification.

I don’t think gambling or what you do is immoral, but if your line of thinking is how you justify your job you should think again as it sounds like it doesn’t match up with your own morals.

Re: How slot machines are designed to be addictive

#73

Post by halhen »

smallstepforman wrote: post #60

Disclaimer: I design the machines and games for a living. 1) regarding near miss, with basic math knowledge you can easily calculate the odds of near miss. Eg. with 2 special symbols per 30 symbol reel, for a 3x5 reel game, you have a 1:5 chance of seeing the special symbol per reel, or once per spin for a 5 reel game. The odds of a 4 symbol near miss is (1:5)^4, which is 1:625, or once every 30 minutes. With a bank…

Having worked with data analytics in problem gambling for ten years, your dismissal of the addictiveness of these games is either uninformed or rationalized, most likely both.

Recent research in Sweden shows that some 75% of online casino turnover are from what can be loosely described as moderate risk gambling (PGSI3+) and approximately 50% from problem gambling (PGSI8+). Similarly about 25% of regular (monthly) players are problem gamblers. Of those who start playing slots monthly, 10% develop gambling problems within a year.

These are bad numbers. Really bad. And they match my experience from million-players-+ databases of actual gambling data.

The most significant marker to predict gambling problems is the amount wagered, say per month. The more someone plays, the higher the risk of that person having gambling problems. About 10% of players make up 80% of the turnover; about 0.1% about 10%. The Pareto principle at play, sure, but combined with the former it basically says that you can't trust the industry for advice on problem gambling.

This is not your safe-little-hobby thing, and the amount players who really enjoy them are much, much, much fewer than you make it sound. The majority of the industry's revenue come from people who would like to stop but can't. This is by any useful definition neither rational nor voluntary. The main claim of the industry is "informed choice" and the users' responsibility to take control, despite loss of control being the very definition of the illness.

This is another tobacco-industry-like example of society slowly realizing the hidden costs being pushed by a powerful industry to unknowing and often vulnerable third parties.

Re: How slot machines are designed to be addictive

#74

Post by zyx321 »

smallstepforman wrote: post #60

Disclaimer: I design the machines and games for a living. 1) regarding near miss, with basic math knowledge you can easily calculate the odds of near miss. Eg. with 2 special symbols per 30 symbol reel, for a 3x5 reel game, you have a 1:5 chance of seeing the special symbol per reel, or once per spin for a 5 reel game. The odds of a 4 symbol near miss is (1:5)^4, which is 1:625, or once every 30 minutes. With a bank…

2) Employees are paid by the hour, they have no emotional investment in the outcome of a spin.

5) There are people who can gamble responsibly. They literally don't matter. They are small fry. Their money does not build those opulent Vegas palaces. It's all about the whales, the high rollers.

Re: How slot machines are designed to be addictive

#75

Post by lordfoom »

smallstepforman wrote: post #60

Disclaimer: I design the machines and games for a living. 1) regarding near miss, with basic math knowledge you can easily calculate the odds of near miss. Eg. with 2 special symbols per 30 symbol reel, for a 3x5 reel game, you have a 1:5 chance of seeing the special symbol per reel, or once per spin for a 5 reel game. The odds of a 4 symbol near miss is (1:5)^4, which is 1:625, or once every 30 minutes. With a bank…

This is some serious PR. "Oh we're just about giving people cheap entertainment, it's a total coincidence we profit hugely off the misery of others."

Re: How slot machines are designed to be addictive

#76

Post by smallstepforman »

halhen wrote: post #73
smallstepforman wrote: post #60

Disclaimer: I design the machines and games for a living. 1) regarding near miss, with basic math knowledge you can easily calculate the odds of near miss. Eg. with 2 special symbols per 30 symbol reel, for a 3x5 reel game, you have a 1:5 chance of seeing the special symbol per reel, or once per spin for a 5 reel game. The odds of a 4 symbol near miss is (1:5)^4, which is 1:625, or once every 30 minutes. With a bank…

Having worked with data analytics in problem gambling for ten years, your dismissal of the addictiveness of these games is either uninformed or rationalized, most likely both. Recent research in Sweden shows that some 75% of online casino turnover are from what can be loosely described as moderate risk gambling (PGSI3+) and approximately 50% from problem gambling (PGSI8+). Similarly about 25% of regular (monthly) pla…

Human psychology studies are a tricky thing, where everyone only focuses on data which matches their preconceived notions. I'm sure that some university group has researched the cost of fashion addiction, music addiction, car addiction, holiday addiction etc. yet no-one is talking about the social cost of fashion/collections/other vices people may have. There was a large Casino court case in Australia a couple of months ago and the "experts" (if they can be called that) couldn't prove that gambling was an addictive activity, since a large portion of playerswho participated in 'gambling activities' could not be classified as addicted. Since the prosecution couldn't prove the slot machines were addictive, the case against the Casino was dropped (lots of expert testimony ended up being dismissed).

Re: How slot machines are designed to be addictive

#78

Post by halhen »

smallstepforman wrote: post #76
halhen wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having worked with data analytics in problem gambling for ten years, your dismissal of the addictiveness of these games is either uninformed or rationalized, most likely both. Recent research in Sweden shows that some 75% of online casino turnover are from what can be loosely described as moderate risk gambling (PGSI3+) and approximately 50% from problem gambling (PGSI8+). Similarly about 25% of regular (monthly) pla…

Human psychology studies are a tricky thing, where everyone only focuses on data which matches their preconceived notions. I'm sure that some university group has researched the cost of fashion addiction, music addiction, car addiction, holiday addiction etc. yet no-one is talking about the social cost of fashion/collections/other vices people may have. There was a large Casino court case in Australia a couple of mon…

Well, Gambling Disorder is a recognized psychological diagnosis in DSM 5[0], so I guess the reader will have to weigh the credibility of the industry's claims vs all the other evidence around.

Also, from your comments I assume you rarely meet a representative sample of your customers. I did, and that experience ALSO matched my other claims. You do you of course, and I know where you're coming from: I too built gambling software for five years before I went to work with problem gambling. If integrity is important to you though, you should read up on the subject (Addictive by design is a good book), meet some of your customers, and take your own and your company's self-interest biases into account.

[0] https://www.psychiatry.org/patients-families/gambling-disord...

Re: How slot machines are designed to be addictive

#79

Post by YeGoblynQueenne »

dbatten wrote: post #22

These "articles" with embedded scroll-hijacking garbage have got to stop. I really wanted to read about slot machines but I'm not suffering through that. Does this need to be a new hn flag? This is the second of these today.

I agree it does look quite atrocious- apologies, but I felt it was interesting enough to post anyway.

Re: How slot machines are designed to be addictive

#80

Post by hermanhermitage »

smallstepforman wrote: post #60

Disclaimer: I design the machines and games for a living. 1) regarding near miss, with basic math knowledge you can easily calculate the odds of near miss. Eg. with 2 special symbols per 30 symbol reel, for a 3x5 reel game, you have a 1:5 chance of seeing the special symbol per reel, or once per spin for a 5 reel game. The odds of a 4 symbol near miss is (1:5)^4, which is 1:625, or once every 30 minutes. With a bank…

2) The employees are not gambling, so they are not exposed to the addictive product.

3) Incorrect. Standalone progressives and linked progressives adjust the payout based on the outcome of previous games. Either the jackpot is awarded and reset, or the increment is added and will be available as a future payout. Furthermore some markets have had a history of compensators (eg fruit machine markets / awp).

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