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Finnish-born journalist: Americans make crucial mistake in how they look at life

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Re: Finnish-born journalist: Americans make crucial mistake in how they look at life

#41

Post by twoodfin »

denzil_correa wrote: post #14
uoaei wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> America takes and redistributes just as much money The statistics refute this claim.[1] All values in USD/capita. Stats are from 2015 USA - 14,794 Finland - 18,580 Iceland - 18,783 Sweden - 21,800 Denmark - 24,527 Norway - 30,138 The other Scandinavian countries are included for comparison. [1] https://data.oecd.org/tax/tax-revenue.htm

It would be interesting to see income distribution as opposed to per capita. I think, it will throw up even more contrasts between USA and Nordics.

Yes. Arguing for a Nordic system is effectively proposing massive middle class tax increases. Citizens in those countries typically are paying for their own services, not having them provided by the rich.

Re: Finnish-born journalist: Americans make crucial mistake in how they look at life

#42

Post by Xylakant »

pmoriarty wrote: post #25
Xylakant wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Taxes are not rent. Taxes are the share of expenses you pay for the services and security the state provides. In European countries, especially in the Scandinavian ones it’s commonly understood and agreed upon that the stronger ones carry more of that burden. That may sound like communism to people from a country with a stronger “each for his own good” mindset, but pretty much all statistics point in the direction th…

"it makes for fewer extremely rich people but to an overall happier society." The extremely rich are still going to be extremely rich after paying taxes.

True, the rich will still be rich, but the span contracts (lower Gini coefficient) By many statistics, this lower span correlates to a happier society.

Re: Finnish-born journalist: Americans make crucial mistake in how they look at life

#43

Post by microcolonel »

Xylakant wrote: post #40
microcolonel wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You still own whatever you own Not if you don't pay the rent. > and can still sell it, destroy it, modify it, whatever And when you sell it, you're basically selling a rental agreement. > Calling it rent and calling the state the true owner doesn't really make sense--you're conflating two separate ideas, I think, to play on people's emotions ("oh noes, the state owns everything!"). It's not true or accurate, though…

If your definition of ownership is that the state can take things from you because it has the monopoly on power there’s a very sad message I have for you: It’s basically everywhere like that. Try not paying the taxes due on land and housing property in the US and see what happens.

That may be the case for most or all land in the U.S., but it at least doesn't apply to musical instruments, couches, computers, and cars (except in some jurisdictions).

If the best I can do is pay the wealth tax only on real property, then that's what I would prefer.

Re: Finnish-born journalist: Americans make crucial mistake in how they look at life

#44

Post by Xylakant »

microcolonel wrote: post #43
Xylakant wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If your definition of ownership is that the state can take things from you because it has the monopoly on power there’s a very sad message I have for you: It’s basically everywhere like that. Try not paying the taxes due on land and housing property in the US and see what happens.

That may be the case for most or all land in the U.S., but it at least doesn't apply to musical instruments, couches, computers, and cars (except in some jurisdictions). If the best I can do is pay the wealth tax only on real property, then that's what I would prefer.

The IRS will happily impound your valueable instruments if you fail to pay taxes. Looks like the government still owns everything you call your own.

Re: Finnish-born journalist: Americans make crucial mistake in how they look at life

#46

Post by smn1234 »

762236 wrote: post #4

"Foreigners tend to view Nordic countries as "these socialist nanny states where everybody has a collectivist mindset," Partanen said. But "in fact a lot of these services really support everybody's independence."" I pay a ton of taxes in the U.S. I don't get how Finland warrants an accusation of a collectivist mindset, while America takes and redistributes just as much money. Is it because spending on defense, inste…

I was recently in Denmark where I learned first hand from numerous locals about the social services working together whereby most (if not all?) medical care is completely covered, children's education is covered (if they go abroad as well), subsidies for having kids and for studying / continued education... this largely results in two major considerations: a "no-stress" lifestyle without cause for concern of saving up for unforeseen and significant medical illness, and no cause for concern of saving up for your child's schooling and higher education. So, despite a _slightly_ higher tax, does all the take home money not then become completely disposable income with nothing needing to be allocated for savings, unless desire for new car or housing, or luxuries?

Re: Finnish-born journalist: Americans make crucial mistake in how they look at life

#47

Post by SnowProblem »

> "The choices Nordic countries have made have little to do with altruism or kinship," Partanen wrote for The Atlantic in 2016. "This is what Americans fail to understand: My taxes in Finland were used to pay for top-notch services for me."

This is an odd statement to me. Any wealth redistribution system has both "givers" and "receivers". What do the "givers" in Nordic countries actually think? Do the the "givers" share this perspective that the system isn't altruistic? Or do they not consider this money theirs? Are they conditioned by a young age to see themselves as "receivers"? Or do they not think about which they are, and prefer the ambiguity? Or are they silenced? I'm very curious to hear a "giver's" perspective, because this sounds a bit brain-washy to me.

Re: Finnish-born journalist: Americans make crucial mistake in how they look at life

#48

Post by pmorici »

grogenaut wrote: post #35
pmorici wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are forgetting that in the US we also pay state and local income tax, state and local property tax, and State and local sales tax. Even if you rent you are paying property tax indirectly. There is also Social Security and Medicare taxes so pile on 12.6% for that as well. Once you figure in all those things the effective US tax rate is a lot higher than the federal income tax rates.

I live in Seattle, I pay no state tax. My property tax is $5k/year which is and additional 5% at 100k income, but I elected into that and we don't have property tax in the discussion, lets just assuming rental in both locations. Social security caps out iirc. There's still a 20% difference between the effective tax rates.

Washington State and local government has a sales tax of close to 10%. So say you make 100k per year, your effective tax rate is 25% add 5% property tax and ten percent sales tax that's 40%.

Re: Finnish-born journalist: Americans make crucial mistake in how they look at life

#49

Post by [deleted] »

grogenaut wrote: post #6
762236 wrote: post #4

"Foreigners tend to view Nordic countries as "these socialist nanny states where everybody has a collectivist mindset," Partanen said. But "in fact a lot of these services really support everybody's independence."" I pay a ton of taxes in the U.S. I don't get how Finland warrants an accusation of a collectivist mindset, while America takes and redistributes just as much money. Is it because spending on defense, inste…

Effective tax rate in finland is around 50% https://tradingeconomics.com/finland/personal-income-tax-rat... and seems to come from a income tax rate that is similar to the US 25-31% but also includes retierment / social monies around 18+3%, so ends up effectively being 50-51. Also capitol gains is taxed at 30% for anything over 30k euros. I found this info with one google request, first 2 answers. So the tax rate is…

[deleted]

Re: Finnish-born journalist: Americans make crucial mistake in how they look at life

#50

Post by dogma1138 »

grogenaut wrote: post #6
762236 wrote: post #4

"Foreigners tend to view Nordic countries as "these socialist nanny states where everybody has a collectivist mindset," Partanen said. But "in fact a lot of these services really support everybody's independence."" I pay a ton of taxes in the U.S. I don't get how Finland warrants an accusation of a collectivist mindset, while America takes and redistributes just as much money. Is it because spending on defense, inste…

Effective tax rate in finland is around 50% https://tradingeconomics.com/finland/personal-income-tax-rat... and seems to come from a income tax rate that is similar to the US 25-31% but also includes retierment / social monies around 18+3%, so ends up effectively being 50-51. Also capitol gains is taxed at 30% for anything over 30k euros. I found this info with one google request, first 2 answers. So the tax rate is…

Don’t forget VAT and much higher import taxes which make some consumer goods prices constitute of effectively 70-80% tax.

When you have goods with import tax of 50% or higher and on top of that you pay 20-25% VAT you have much higher effective tax rates.

In many European countries 80% of your income or in some cases even more will go into taxes.

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