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The Disappearing American Grad Student

nytimes.com

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Re: The Disappearing American Grad Student

#121

Post by tyoma »

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #115
tyoma wrote: post #38

The monetary value proposition of grad school simply isn't very good if you're a US citizen. There is non-monetary value (like advancing human knowledge) that makes grad school worth it for some, but the pay is low. Imagine you just graduated from a quality undergrad with high grades and strong recommendations from your professors. Maybe you had an internship or two or spent a summer doing research. Maybe you even ha…

>Most people will chose Option 2. The two main types of people who chose Option 1 are those who are passionate about learning and advancing human knowledge and those who want a career where a PhD is required. I was under the impression that "those two main types of people" are the only ones who're really supposed to go into PhD programs in the first place, so shouldn't we be talking about the incentives important to…

I should have clarified my point better. Yes, those two main types of people are exactly who is supposed to go to grad school. But desire and qualifications are not enough. One also has to be willing to live in near poverty and delay starting a family for ~6 years.

It is hardly surprising few people take that option when instead they could be living comfortably (even 80K/year is well above median US income) at a job they're not passionate about.

Re: The Disappearing American Grad Student

#123

Post by smilbandit »

tyoma wrote: post #38

The monetary value proposition of grad school simply isn't very good if you're a US citizen. There is non-monetary value (like advancing human knowledge) that makes grad school worth it for some, but the pay is low. Imagine you just graduated from a quality undergrad with high grades and strong recommendations from your professors. Maybe you had an internship or two or spent a summer doing research. Maybe you even ha…

How are international students paying for the degrees? I know a masters degree can cost nearly $100k for a student without any scholarships.

Re: The Disappearing American Grad Student

#124

Post by tyoma »

s0rce wrote: post #47
tyoma wrote: post #38

The monetary value proposition of grad school simply isn't very good if you're a US citizen. There is non-monetary value (like advancing human knowledge) that makes grad school worth it for some, but the pay is low. Imagine you just graduated from a quality undergrad with high grades and strong recommendations from your professors. Maybe you had an internship or two or spent a summer doing research. Maybe you even ha…

Where were you 10 years ago. Well, I guess I was "passionate about learning and advancing human knowledge" but that didn't turn out to be all that practical.

Honest answer? I was just starting grad school.

I went for my MS and had a wonderful experience. Would do it again in a heartbeat. There are many positives about grad school if you enjoy learning and research.

There is definitely an opportunity cost and it is not surprising there are so few US citizens in grad school -- at least in technical fields. I hear it's a different story in the humanities.

Re: The Disappearing American Grad Student

#125

Post by grigjd3 »

tyoma wrote: post #38

The monetary value proposition of grad school simply isn't very good if you're a US citizen. There is non-monetary value (like advancing human knowledge) that makes grad school worth it for some, but the pay is low. Imagine you just graduated from a quality undergrad with high grades and strong recommendations from your professors. Maybe you had an internship or two or spent a summer doing research. Maybe you even ha…

I'm effectively a nobody engineer at a large tech firm and I make three and a half times what I used to make as a postdoc at highly respected universities.

Re: The Disappearing American Grad Student

#126

Post by grigjd3 »

laichzeit0 wrote: post #60
tyoma wrote: post #38

The monetary value proposition of grad school simply isn't very good if you're a US citizen. There is non-monetary value (like advancing human knowledge) that makes grad school worth it for some, but the pay is low. Imagine you just graduated from a quality undergrad with high grades and strong recommendations from your professors. Maybe you had an internship or two or spent a summer doing research. Maybe you even ha…

Why not go for Option 2, but do your post-grad part time while working? It might take 10 years instead of 6, but by then you'd have 10 years work experience, capital, etc.

This is basically not feasible. At part time, you'd barely have time enough to read the literature to keep current, let alone get actual research done, apply for grants, write papers, give talks and presentations, go to conferences, and teach classes.

Re: The Disappearing American Grad Student

#127

Post by eli_gottlieb »

tyoma wrote: post #121
eli_gottlieb wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Most people will chose Option 2. The two main types of people who chose Option 1 are those who are passionate about learning and advancing human knowledge and those who want a career where a PhD is required. I was under the impression that "those two main types of people" are the only ones who're really supposed to go into PhD programs in the first place, so shouldn't we be talking about the incentives important to…

I should have clarified my point better. Yes, those two main types of people are exactly who is supposed to go to grad school. But desire and qualifications are not enough. One also has to be willing to live in near poverty and delay starting a family for ~6 years. It is hardly surprising few people take that option when instead they could be living comfortably (even 80K/year is well above median US income) at a job…

>It is hardly surprising few people take that option when instead they could be living comfortably (even 80K/year is well above median US income) at a job they're not passionate about.

But we're talking about a "disappearing" American grad-student. What has actually changed about lucrative professions being more lucrative than a grad-student stipend?

This whole thread comes across as people just wanting to brag that they went into industry rather than think about the question.

Re: The Disappearing American Grad Student

#128

Post by tonmoy »

drewg123 wrote: post #80
tyoma wrote: post #38

The monetary value proposition of grad school simply isn't very good if you're a US citizen. There is non-monetary value (like advancing human knowledge) that makes grad school worth it for some, but the pay is low. Imagine you just graduated from a quality undergrad with high grades and strong recommendations from your professors. Maybe you had an internship or two or spent a summer doing research. Maybe you even ha…

There's also option 1.5: You start at a grad school in a PhD program (so that you have support and do not pile up debt), and you leave with a Masters as quickly as you can. I managed to get my MS in CS back in the early 90s in one calendar year. I had full support via a fellowship since I was one of the top students, so I did not have to be an RA or TA, and could take additional classes. I finished all but my MS Thes…

I have actually seen some professors reluctant to take on US students. With foreign students they at least know for sure that they won’t be able to leave as easily

Re: The Disappearing American Grad Student

#129

Post by sytelus »

tyoma wrote: post #38

The monetary value proposition of grad school simply isn't very good if you're a US citizen. There is non-monetary value (like advancing human knowledge) that makes grad school worth it for some, but the pay is low. Imagine you just graduated from a quality undergrad with high grades and strong recommendations from your professors. Maybe you had an internship or two or spent a summer doing research. Maybe you even ha…

This is a wrong theory and wrong view. Being grad student pays unlike being masters or undergrad. Although the pay is not all that high, it's important to realize that vast majority of fresh out of the college students earns $55K or less. In fields like CS, grad students have phenomenal prospects. The reason American students are vanishing from grad schools is simply because (1) grad schools don't have quota system that forces them to accept only limited number of international students (2) they compete with best of the best of ALL countries. If you are going to compete with top students of China, India, Russia and other 200 countries then most likely you are going to lose.

Re: The Disappearing American Grad Student

#130

Post by greeneggs »

mysterypie wrote: post #89

> In the fall of 2015, about 55 percent of all graduate students in mathematics, computer sciences and engineering were from abroad. The dearth of Americans is even more pronounced in hot STEM fields: About 64 percent of doctoral candidates and almost 68 percent in master’s programs last year were international students. The NYT is trying to vaguely suggest that Americans are being crowded out by foreigners and that…

> The NYT is trying to vaguely suggest that Americans are being crowded out by foreigners and that Americans can't get advanced degrees because foreigners take all the spots.

No, the article never suggests this, that sounds like your own bias.

First you set up a strawman---and then you don't even bother knocking it down! You don't need to make up numbers "for sake of example." All this is information is available, just Google it.

Finally, it is not "the NYT" making an argument. The author is Nick Wingfield, it says so right there on top.

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