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USS McCain collision ultimately caused by UI confusion

arstechnica.co.uk

271–280 of 369 posts

Re: USS McCain collision ultimately caused by UI confusion

#271

My friend's boat is a dual engine diesel, 78ft, two stories. It has a controller where you set a course and a computer controls the throttles and rudder. On the very choppy lake of the Ozarks, this is a handy feature. You're telling me a million dollar guided missle destroyer can't do this?

Everybody come to the beautiful Lake of the Ozarks, where you too can be menaced on narrow inland waterways by giant overpowered wave-making monstrosities like that of 'exabrial's friend!

At least you won't have to worry about uncontrolled USN vessels...

Re: USS McCain collision ultimately caused by UI confusion

#272
post #223
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a big difference between unknowingly fighting over the controls and knowingly fighting over the controls. If Robert had realized that Bonin was making the completely wrong control input then maybe he would have put a stop to it somehow. "Stop that, you'll get us all killed" is likely to be effective. He could have told the captain about it as soon as the captain arrived, rather than just before impact. Note t…

There's no indication that they were fighting unknowingly. I'm not sure what you're concluding that on the basis of. >Note that when the incorrect input was finally identified by someone other than Bonin, it was corrected immediately, it was just far too late. So the popular mechanics article says, but it's not so clear in the report that this ever really happened.

In an earlier reply you wrote "Neither of the pilots in the cockpit ever figured it out" where "it" appears to be that they were fighting over control of the airplane.

I realize that this is somewhat unfair, in that your earlier statements are not part of the official report, but what indication would you expect to see that they were fighting unknowingly? There will not necessarily be evidence for it on the voice recorder, and especially in the "unknowingly" phase. The evidence would be in the pilots simultaneously making conflicting control inputs while the airplane was in the dual-control state, and IIRC, the data recorder did show that. Also, according to Langewiesche [1], 'Bonin, using his own priority button, and without saying a word, took control back. This left Robert with a sense that his side-stick had failed. He said, “Fuck, what’s going on?"' - i.e. the nature of the controls introduced additional doubt over what was happening, rather than that it was all a consequence of Bonin's actions (OK, so maybe there is evidence on the CVR.)

A similar situation (sustained, pilot-commanded stall) occurred in the AirAsia flight 8501 crash into the Java Sea.

While I agree that the nature of the side-stick control was far from being the primary cause of either accident, I am not convinced that it has been ruled out as something of a contributory factor.

There is also an entirely different user interface issue here: the stall warnings stopped when Bonin raised the angle of attack beyond a certain point (as the system no longer treated the data as 'plausible') and resumed when he lowered it.

[1] https://www.vanityfair.com/news/business/2014/10/air-france-...

Re: USS McCain collision ultimately caused by UI confusion

#273
post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The nuclear part isn’t just used to generate electricity for the motors?

The heat from the nuclear reaction in a nuclear power plant is typically just used to boil water, which turns turbines, which creates the electricity.

Does this electricity charge a battery pack, which then is used to drive the electric motors which turn the screws? This would imply that the heat generation and turbine spin-up time merely need to respond before the batteries are discharged, potentially allowing response times of minutes or hours. It would give Tesla-like instant throttle response, where the operator would move the lever and the sub would jump forward.

Or does it directly power the engines? This would mean that your entire control loop would include the latency of the steam generation process. Move the lever, wait for the water to get hot, wait for the turbines to spin up, and then the screws would start to turn faster. Like the throttle response in an ancient diesel truck.

Given that the original diesel submarines used giant battery arrays to power the electric motors while the engines were off, and that the former gives much better control response, I'd assume that there are still large batteries in the loop. This paper [2] supports that assertion:

> The nominal cell voltage is 2.0 V. [1] The PDX-57 cell designed for Ohio-class submarines weights 2,100 pounds with a capacity of more than 10,000 Amp-hours and stored energy of 2.6 MWh. [1] The ASB-49 cell designed for the Los Angeles-class submarine weights 1,300 pounds with a capacity of 7,200 Amp-hours and stored energy of 1.8 MWh. [1] The LLL-69 type cell weights 1,500 pounds with a capacity of 8,100 Amp- hours and stored energy of 2.0 MHh. [1]

A couple megawatthours is plenty to run the screws while the steam loop and nuclear reactor respond.

Therefore, toomanybeersies comment:

> On a nuclear powered ship, yes, since you still essentially have a steam engine, the engine telegraph (throttle) isn't actually linked directly to the engine.

is technically correct but actually irrelevant. The nuclear reactor telegraph does control the steam turbine and eventually the battery charge, rather than the engine. But somewhere there's an electric motor controller which responds instantly.

[1] http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/1177196/?reload=true&tp=... [2] http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2013/ph241/ditiangkin1/

Re: USS McCain collision ultimately caused by UI confusion

#274
post #227
post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an outsider (well, I have plenty of experience with pleasure boats/yachts, but none with large ships) it seems really extraordinary that just maintaining a heading would be a full time job. Somehow in airplanes a single pilot manages to control not only the rudder, but throttles, ailerons, elevators, flaps and whatnot while also yakking on the radio. And airplanes zip along at 500 knots rather than 20 like a ship.

Fewer obstacles maybe? Also, with a fast plane you either land or take off, or do stuff in practically free space.

Also there is the example of infantry tank. There is the driver who has speed and direction. Then there is the commander who gives orders but apparently has backup system to drive if the driver is incapacitated.

A ship just can't have as much obstacles as tank negotiating battlefield.

Re: USS McCain collision ultimately caused by UI confusion

#275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not labor-intensive, it's attention-intensive. You want the person managing the speed to be focused on that. You want the person managing the heading to be focused on that. And you definitely don't want the officer to be distracted by maintaining course and speed when they need to be keeping track of what's going on around the ship.

You want the person managing the speed to be focused on that if managing speed is still inherently and unavoidably attention-intensive - if modern control technology is able to automagically maintain speed at x knots, adjusting all the various engine control parameters to implement that, then an extra person in the loop only means an extra chance for mistakes or delays.

If the military learned a lesson from exploding a reactor with an automatic control system, you might never know - it's not required to be reported to the public.

Re: USS McCain collision ultimately caused by UI confusion

#276
Alan Cooper wrote some books about User Interface design and this really reminds me of his books and talks.

When you cross a car with a computer, what does happen?

When you cross a ship with a computer, what does happen?

Ship steering and management was developed in hundreds of years, than comes the computer and changes everything in some decades ... no wonder, that some friction happens.

I am not anti computer, because I am a developer myself, but you must be very carefully in designing these things. I even see it in our modern cars and cell phones ...

Re: USS McCain collision ultimately caused by UI confusion

#277
Maybe I’m too late or too simplistic, but why do ships and aircrafts have so complex control systems in normal functioning modes at all?

Why can’t layman ship commander like me just tell the system to be “there” in specific time via hand-drawn or standard route? If my engines malfunctioning, or steering lost it is one thing, but if everything is okay, can’t a simple swipe-to-sail iphone app just coordinate all ship controls to “be there in 3m08s” in most effective way according to the safety rules?

Now it seems like all the precise counters and sensors are passed to slow, biased, narrow-focused and error-prone device that is my mind to get goal-related feedback. And this device happens to be proud of being it. As a programmer, I just can’t understand it. Do commanders quickly solve unsolvable differential equations in realtime or what?

Re: USS McCain collision ultimately caused by UI confusion

#278
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The path to a disaster has been compared to a tunnel [0]. You can escape from the tunnel at many points, but you may not realize it. Trying to find the 'real cause' is a fool's errand, because there are many places and ways to avoid the outcome. I do take your meaning, reducing speed and following well established rules would have almost certainly have saved them. 0. PDF: http://www.leonardo-in-flight.nl/PDF/FieldGui…

I've never heard the tunnel analogy. Seems odd, since tunnels generally only have one entrance and one exit... In a lot of fields where the stakes are high and mistakes are costly (aviation and emergency services are the two I'm most familiar with) the analogy used is a chain. Break any link in the chain and you prevent the event. https://www.aopa.org/asf/publications/inst_reports2.cfm?arti...

Urban tunnels have many regular entries and exits, as well as emergency exits, not to speak of emergency crossovers.

Re: USS McCain collision ultimately caused by UI confusion

#279
post #274
post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fewer obstacles maybe? Also, with a fast plane you either land or take off, or do stuff in practically free space.

Also there is the example of infantry tank. There is the driver who has speed and direction. Then there is the commander who gives orders but apparently has backup system to drive if the driver is incapacitated. A ship just can't have as much obstacles as tank negotiating battlefield.

> the example of infantry tank. There is the driver who has speed and direction. Then there is the commander who gives orders but apparently has backup system to drive

The UK's Warrior armoured personnel carrier is an example of what I guess you mean by 'Infantry Tank'. It has a Commander, Gunner and Driver (plus the 'dismounts' - seven guys in the back who get out to fight on their feet). The driver - as the role name implies - does all the drving. The commander (who is also the loader, incidentally) directs the driver where to go. He does not have duplicate driving controls. If the driver is very inexperienced, the commander will give him very precise direction. If the driver is experienced - in the sense of understanding tactical movement considerations - the commander can be much more hands off.

If the vehicle commander is also a platoon commander, he is also giving orders to the commnanders of the three other vehicles in the platoon. He is much more likely to be paired with an experienced driver so he can focus more on the overall battle than control of his own vehicle.

Re: USS McCain collision ultimately caused by UI confusion

#280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’d say it’s the same reason why manual transmission vehicles are still more popular than automatic transmission in some countries. Automatic transmission of modern cars is easier (you can give more attention to the road than having to think about changing gears), gives a smoother ride, is more fuel efficient and causes less wear and tear on the engine. It’s a habit that the organisation is used to, so there is resis…

Cars with automatic transmissions cost more.

They cost more to buy, they cost more to maintain, and the more pleasant they are to use, the less reliable (e.g. VW DSG vs Toyota HSD)
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