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Why Do We Still Commute?

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Re: Why Do We Still Commute?

#91
post #80
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are lots of such implementations (virtual whiteboard and/or pen and paper). Search for: "collaborating writing tool", "virtual whiteboard" etc. The latter are usually part of teleconference tools. Here's from an open source one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4MNqiMEblgo

None of the ones I've ever seen or used comes close to even approximating the in-person whiteboard experience.

That has been my experience as well.

Re: Why Do We Still Commute?

#92

Things that happen when you're in the office: - spins around in chair, interrupts and asks coworker a question, workshops ideas for 15 minutes, comes up with solution, makes a meeting - boss comes over and tells workers there's some issue going on he's going to go deal with and he'll be available via cell only - when SCRUM ends, conversation continues in person, things get decided - walk into boss's office and make t…

Sounds to me like you're a detriment to your entire office, callously leeching people's time.

This seems like an exceptionally cynical and judgemental view of a person based on what, a couple of sentences?

Re: Why Do We Still Commute?

#93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends on your boss. I had plenty water cooler conversations with mine.

I would say that is not professional. If there is anything work related, you book a meeting and then discuss. For this reason I know few people are on the look out when to go get the water without stumbling upon a boss or a manager, because they take it as a harassment. This adds huge amount of stress and knocks the productivity. Workplaces with "we are big family" approach are the worse. This should be illegal.

Requiring a formal meeting - booking a room (of course the only available room ends up far away from everyone's offices), negotiating a time with everyone, etc. - is sometimes unavoidable but certainly adds a lot of friction. And worst of all, it must be planned beforehand. Not spontaneous. Some of the most useful work discussions I had were during short, unplanned encounters in the corridor.

I suspect that a workplace where work discussions happen only in form of formal meetings would be rather unproductive.

Re: Why Do We Still Commute?

#94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

unfortunately there are many more examples where it is proven that collocated teams work far better

and then you forget to list them.

Just like you forgot to list the counter-argument examples of remote teams being better.

But seriously... I would expect there to be examples of both - Good remote teams. Good office teams. Bad remote teams. Bad office teams.

And every shade in between.

I'd, personally, prefer a mix? Couple days in the office... couple days remote. Time to "schmooze" with the team. Time to be in a quiet place to concentrate.

Why does it have to be one or the other? Anyone that claims one extreme is better or worse generally misses the truth: The best option is generally somewhere in the middle of the extremes.

Re: Why Do We Still Commute?

#95

I think that the 'importance of face-to-face interaction' argument is a helplessly contrived one, an attempt to avoid the elephant in the room. There are plenty of examples that show that working remotely without daily face-to-face interaction can work very well. What's markedly different about environments that successfully adopted remote work are aspects like: - a lack of cargo cult work organisation and office pol…

"Working remotely requires the participants to be much more communicative because in such a setting communication for the most part doesn't just happen serendipitously, you have to work to make it happen. " Yes. Having managed remote teams and being a remote dev, it's all about response time . If someone slacks you, the response should be as quick as if it were verbal in the office. If it takes 2 hours to get a respo…

I'm going to disagree here. It's entirely possible to work effectively with others via mostly-asynchronous communication. Open source projects, as you point out, can be a pretty good example of this. I'd further argue that for some (I suspect many...) people work much better when they can have long stints of focus without fear of interruptions.

Two-minute responses on Slack absolutely is a model that can work, and perhaps it's the easiest transition for people who've been working in a "teamy"/open-plan on-site setup. But I'm also convinced that it's not the only viable setup.

Re: Why Do We Still Commute?

#96

Conversations around whiteboards between stakeholders creates value. Pair programming makes for lower defects and more reliable scheduling. Software is a design delivery operation. There was recent article on MS office space redesign to create more value. We are never typing approximations to futures like the proverbial monkeys. Productivity is not per-keystroke. I have been paid extra to kill projects that never sho…

While I have nothing against MBAs, this is a typical example of what people call MBAish / corporate BS and why managerial profiles have gained a bad reputation here. It looks smart on the surface but scrutiny exposes non-sense.

>Conversations around whiteboards between stakeholders creates value.

Why ? Are whiteboards magic ?

>Pair programming makes for lower defects and more reliable scheduling

Putting aside the fact that the benefits of pair programming as less consensual than what you seem to suggest, it can be done much more conveniently in a remote setup with a screenshare and a headset than by sharing a desk.

>Software is a design delivery operation.

So ?

>There was recent article on MS office space redesign to create more value.

Here we have the business case reference, always good to include one. The substantial remark is that once again this doesn't prove anything, the first reason being that "value" is extremely vague.

>Productivity is not per-keystroke

The art of looking like you are siding with the people you want to control while it is actually the opposite. If we go the bottom of the reasoning : value is not per keystroke, we therefore need to put employees in a room because their true value must be monitored to be appreciated. "Please understand, I really want to be able to appreciate your true value". Sounds a bit hypocrite to me.

>Personal productivity is almost a misnomer

One more slogan.

>I have been paid extra to kill projects that never should have started.

While I am the first to advocate careful planning and writing code last, as an entrepreneur, I consider it a crime to sabotage projects, because anyone who has ever created something, or started a project or a venture understands that creativity is almost Holy. Beyond the technical deliverables, projects trigger group (and market) dynamics and institutional learning that may be hard to reproduce later in time. For this reason, doers do not sabotage or kill projects, they rectify them. Sure there can be pure follies that need to be stopped ASAP to stop diverting valuable resources of the company, but my overall impression is that you have a more liberal approach to assessing what must be killed.

I respect arguments from both sides, but this comment is really representative of the crap filling most companies.

Re: Why Do We Still Commute?

#97
post #53

I think it's connected with the rise of bullshit jobs. If your job is well defined, e.g. make an app or a website design, you can do it anywhere in the world. The app/design is your deliverable that anyone can see and judge. If your job is a poorly defined "management" or "product ownership", with no real deliverable, how can your work be judged? Your job turns into convincing other people that your job is useful. Wo…

I think it's kind of a leap to assume the value is low just because it's hard to measure. This is in general a common, elusive mistake: "We can't measure it, so it must be zero." Better to be ridiculous and say it's worth between $100 and $10,000.

Or at the very least, if there are people producing measurable value, figure out how much less those people would produce if they had to do the other jobs themselves.

Re: Why Do We Still Commute?

#98
We commute because businesses can push off the cost of commuting to their employees. I'd personally be in favor of a "congestion tax" or somesuch for companies that force their employees to come in rather than work remotely. Commuting takes up energy and resources, and the congestion incurs costs on third parties (car accidents, higher gas prices, and the like).

While it's debatable whether remote works for businesses that can work remotely, it imposes costs on the rest of us, especially those who can't do their jobs over an Internet connection, and those costs should be paid by those who willingly incur them, not whoever they can push them off to.

Re: Why Do We Still Commute?

#99
post #80
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are lots of such implementations (virtual whiteboard and/or pen and paper). Search for: "collaborating writing tool", "virtual whiteboard" etc. The latter are usually part of teleconference tools. Here's from an open source one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4MNqiMEblgo

None of the ones I've ever seen or used comes close to even approximating the in-person whiteboard experience.

Not even sure what that means.

They let you write stuff (even with a pen, on a touch capable display) and have others see what you write (and even write/erase themselves).

What else is missing?

Standing in person before an actual whiteboard? Smelling the marker's ink? Maybe with the advent of cheap VR and smell-o-vision we'll get that too.

Re: Why Do We Still Commute?

#100
post #6

I work remote almost 100% and it'a pretty awesome. A Dev I work with has to commute through 50% of Germany every week. He only sees his kids on the weekend.

You make it sound like he doesn't have a choice in the matter, which is extremely unlikely and also very sad.

Do you not trust people to seek out and pick the optimal options for themselves?
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