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A “Silicon Valley” actor is terrified by what’s happening in Silicon Valley

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Re: A “Silicon Valley” actor is terrified by what’s happening in Silicon Valley

#61
Luddite lite.

Tech is one of the only sources of growth in our stagnating economy and is responsible for humanity moving past a subsistence standard of living, but leave it to a well-paid actor sitting in a comfortable air-conditioned room during the most prosperous period ever in the history of humanity to whine about its downsides.

Re: A “Silicon Valley” actor is terrified by what’s happening in Silicon Valley

#62
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Every software engineer I’ve worked with has had a strong sense of personal values and ethics, but the organizations we work for can take actions that are at odds with these. I’d like to highlight a few of the key challenges you’ll face and provide feedback for living your personal values. Most importantly, it’s critical that you think about the impact of your work and consciously set your personal values in advance…

> I'd agree with this assessment of developers. However I've come into these exact moral dilemmas myself in the line of working for various companies doing web programming. How did I resolve them? By making the decision that affected my own bottom line favorably. That would be _not_ having a strong sense of personal values and ethics. If your good morals always lose out to the promise of more money, that's you not ha…

You cannot build the world based on the strength of individuals' moral spine, because a) there's plenty of people with weak ones who will happily outcompete individuals refusing unethical work, and - the more important - b) people respond to incentives. For instance, we have the law and the police even though people in general seem naturally good - they exist to counterbalance incentives that make people do bad things. Saying "just own up to it instead of pretending the real culprit here is a lack of governing bodies that should be protecting you from all the evil money out there" ignores the most basic fact about humans - people do respond to incentives.

Moral dilemmas don't look like "do I accept this high salary for doing evil, or prefer a slightly smaller salary for not doing evil". Moral dilemma is what a hypothetical Jane faces, after one of her parents died and the second is unemployed, when she has to provide for the parent and her younger siblings, while also trying to start her own life with her fiancée. For her, abandoning a high-paying salary that is actually eaten up entirely to let two families live in stability and with dignity, is not a trivial problem. The idea of having support of governing bodies is to turn such life-quality-threatening situations into easy choices, so that people don't get severely punished for doing the right thing.

Also: ethics can be, and is, used to abuse people. In Poland, we have this situation with paramedics, nurses and doctors on residency, who are severely overworked (to the point it's a serious health threat, and causes an occasional suicide), severely underpaid, and on top of that they're told by everyone that they can't protest because that would mean providing worse care for patients, which is obviously unethical.

Re: A “Silicon Valley” actor is terrified by what’s happening in Silicon Valley

#63
post #18

In the vein of Kumail's critique, if it's useful to anyone, I wrote some thoughts about software engineering and ethics from my own experiences: A serial tech entrepreneur in Silicon Valley once asked me to design a “social stockade” for his financial services customers. It would lock people out of their social media accounts and tweet out/FB share to their friends when they hadn’t paid a loan. He pitched it to prosp…

This sounds like the new govt policy being introduced in China to publicly shame loan defaulters

http://fortune.com/2017/10/11/china-debt-evaders-loans-black...

Re: A “Silicon Valley” actor is terrified by what’s happening in Silicon Valley

#64
post #42
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the second time that I read that WikiLeaks is classified as "hostile intelligence agency". Isn't the purpose of intelligence to gather information to gain advantage over adversaries? It sounds to me like a redundant term like "hostile military". And BTW WikiLeaks leaks are public so all other intelligence agencies and citizens can learn while state agencies try to keep things obscure as much as possible. Who'…

Wikileaks leaks are selective. "Public" only describes the things they release. The hostility is in the choice of releases.

There's no denying they promote a certain narrative in their PR, but are there known examples of leaks withheld by Wiki Leaks, where the whistleblower had to go elsewhere?

Re: A “Silicon Valley” actor is terrified by what’s happening in Silicon Valley

#65
post #25

I got into a conversation once that I think frames this well. We had WILDLY different views on whether going to Mars was a good idea (like, violently polar opposite views). The strength of our disagreement surprised me. I was arguing that we should “race to Mars”, mainly because the value of having a second planet dramatically increases the odds of survival for our the human race, as a whole. Thus Mars is one of the…

> These people (me, etc) want the best long term outcome and will take big actions towards that, even knowing it’ll cause some short term pain. > I don’t think ‘regular’ people think like that. > (But not at all about trillions of as yet unborn humans.) > the intentions of entrepreneurs aren’t evil or unethical, they just care more about the survival of the entire race than, today’s people. > Startups are more about “getting us out of this fine mess were in” than money.

I'm sorry, but too much of this leaves me scratching my head as to whether this is satire or not, and I will explain my position and not just be snarky about it, but truthfully after reading through the post having previously only glossed over it, I find some of the statements just very curious.

I take issue with the statement that SV/Entrepreneuer/programmer types just want what is the best long term outcome because more or less what they want is a long term profitable outcome most of the time. We can see examples of software and services which are produced for a better long term outcome; the Linux Kernel, software like ffmpeg, cURL, World Wide Web, etc. Not only are the statements from the founder clear on the goals and intentions of the software, but the software and services live up to their delcaration of intentions and look to solve a problem in a focused and sustainable way. There's always a lot of talk about "nothing wrong with making a little bit of profit while doing something great", but this is a pretty thin line to walk most of the time - Microsoft, for example, does have some very useful software solutions, but there's no doubt that everything about the procurement and design is meant to lock you into using it without question - it's not software to better the human, it's software to lock you in. Microsoft isn't the only guilty party here, they're just an easy example. When I see startups, when I hear about entrepreneuers and SV programmers, and heck I'll outright say it, when I hear about side-projects on HN, a lot of the times it's not software to enhance or improve life, it's software taking a stab at a share of the market.

Not everything has to be F/OSS; we don't all need to be Stallmanites with regards to our data and privacy, and I'm happy to pay out for software that does what it says on the box. I happily dropped $10 on DaisyDisk for macOS because it does exactly what it says it does without trying to lock me in further; I pay and it's done, no subscriptions, no limited functionality, no restrictions on what I can use with it. It serves its purpose very well. Sublime Text is much of the same, and it's such a good program that I've seen people here wish that new versions would require a new purchase just for another excuse to give the authors more money. The difference between these projects and most of the non-sense that gets released is that they're trying to serve an actual goal; they fulfill a need instead of creating one, and they do as promised.

This is what long-term betterment looks like; not subscription models, nag campaigns, constant notifications on what you're not getting, but instead providing a functional tool that makes your life better instead of trying to figure out more ways to get you to put out your credit card.

> I don’t think ‘regular’ people think like that.

I wonder if Doug Evans thinks much of the same thing and wonders why people don't understand he was just trying ot better their future. I take from statements like these a lot of hubris, that such Entrepreneuers know better than everyone else. Everyone at some time is guilty of thinking "if everyone just thought like me it'd be perfect", but it should be pretty obvious this just isn't how the world works. I think that indeed many of the 'regular' people do think very hard about the future, but they also think about how their 'now' will affect their and their children's future. It's not that they aren't trying to help the trillions of yet unborn humans, it's that they see a different way of getting there. For example, a programmer like you're describing wants to write a service to better the future of humanity - my friends in Seattle think we need trees and gardens everywhere. Whose solution now is going to be more important in 10 years? In 1000? In 1000? I'm not sure that you can confidently say the software is going to be impactful and important in 10 years, much less in 1 year, when more and more it seems we just get flashes in a pan.

Your conclusion that startups are concerned about survival and the human race, not just about money, isn't really supported by what the start ups are trying to do. They consolidate power instead of distributing it; they hoard information instead of sharing it. They try to lock you in instead of giving you freedom and options. This is what SV has come to represent with many of the startups you see; a new, more benevolent master, instead of a new tool to help you. There are dozens of new [Something]aaS every week, each one just fighting to lock you in to whatever cycle they have and to wring out a bit of money. These aren't there for the long term betterment of humanity, they're there for the quick buck and to make promises they can't deliver on.

Re: A “Silicon Valley” actor is terrified by what’s happening in Silicon Valley

#66
post #51

The heart of the problem is that popular communication networks are centralized and unencrypted.

How would you make a decentralized, encrypted twitter? How would it be better for society?

https://github.com/tootsuite/mastodon

Re: A “Silicon Valley” actor is terrified by what’s happening in Silicon Valley

#67

The heart of the problem is that popular communication networks are centralized and unencrypted.

Good protocols don't cure bad ethics.

Mind: I would like to see decentralisation and better encryption protections, generally, but those by themselves won't solve the problem (you still need to address ethics, rights, and power imbalances), and still leave certain of present attacks in place.

David Gerard, author of Attack of the 50 Foot Blockchain, makes the exceedingly good point in an FT interview, that Bitcoin and Blockchain themselves are attempts to tech around the trust problem, and that this raises challenges because trust itself buys you an immense amount of efficiency.

https://www.ft.com/content/61cdc5c8-370e-11e7-bce4-9023f8c0f...

I'm starting to come to the view that information technology itself directly attacks* interpersonal trust, at the macro scale. I may not be articulating the argument well at this point, though I've tried:

https://www.reddit.com/r/dredmorbius/comments/6jqakv/communi...

Re: A “Silicon Valley” actor is terrified by what’s happening in Silicon Valley

#68

I think that a better look at this subject is a recent piece in The Atlantic titled, "Are Facebook, Twitter, and Google American Companies?" https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2017/11/are-f... tl;dr, this back-and-forth is unsettling to a Federalist: >In response to a tough line of questions from Senator Tom Cotton of Arkansas, Twitter’s acting general counsel, Sean Edgett, gave two conflicting answers wi…

That's a pretty ridiculous conversation. No wonder the Twitter guy was confused. Neither Wikileaks nor RT are intelligence agencies. The Intelligence Committee pretending they are doesn't change that.

Re: A “Silicon Valley” actor is terrified by what’s happening in Silicon Valley

#69

I've read the article and most of the comments here. Still not sure what ethically questionable things we're talking about. Is serving content related to your personal interests questionable? Or is collection of personal data for commercial (but benign and legal) purposes questionable? I can see that selling and wide-scale distribution of personal data can be a problem unless explicit consent is obtained. Can someone…

Seems like he didn't bother to specify exactly what he found so objectionable. Given that, it's impossible to evaluate his claim that executives were "confused" because "nobody ever asked them the questions". Maybe nobody ever asked them because the questions he was asking were stupid or ridiculous?

After all, it may sound dismissive, but I'm reminded of a quote by Patrick Stuart. "That's the biggest danger, you see: believing that you really are more important than everyone else. We're not, you know. We're just actors". Maybe if Kumail spent his life building things instead of pretending to be someone who builds things, he'd have a different perspective on technology and ethics.

Re: A “Silicon Valley” actor is terrified by what’s happening in Silicon Valley

#70
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, many engineers like to pretend their work is apolitical, but there is "No Neutral Ground in a Burning World"[1]. Everything is political, eventually; technology patently has political consequences that are large in scope, highly complex, and difficult to understand fully. When you are implementing a new technology, please take some time to actively consider all of the potential consequences you can thi…

The most overtly political act most software engineers are likely to make is to choose GPL over BSD or vice-versa. Walk away from a cool idea for ethical reasons? Risk their salary or their safety? I'm sure such engineers must exist, but they're not among any I've ever known. Unfortunately, I am rather pessimistic. We're in this Orwellian/Huxlean dystopia for a reason.

We exist. It's not a thriving lifestyle.
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