Live data from Hacker News

A regression is the kernel not giving the same result with the same user space

lkml.iu.edu

361–370 of 408 posts

Re: A regression is the kernel not giving the same result with the same user space

#361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are people who have the mental tools for being in a conversation where someone displays anger and aggression [0], and those who don't. One person's world-endingly stressful and uncomfortable interaction is another's colorful productive disagreement. The people who don't have those tools control the horizontal, they control the vertical too. If they say your personality is wrong by definition, who are you to que…

For me, it is really the circuitousness that people will go through to avoid saying anything that might be taken as damaging to somebody's feels. It's exhausting, and confusing, and I wish people would just cut the shit and say what they mean. But my dad was ex-military, then a logging contractor, then a heavy equipment mechanic, and I grew up working with him. When there are firearms, chainsaws, bulldozers, or heavy…

Also, it is quite likely that Torvalds would not word it like this in person. He uses it on the mailing list specifically because the written form do not allow body language and other such clues.

It is this that gave us things like smilies and Poe's Law.

Re: A regression is the kernel not giving the same result with the same user space

#362
post #98
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He can afford to be politically incorrect because he makes all the decision, and because nobody else than him can make decisions. He is the expert. There are very few places in software where an expert/engineer have full authority on the development/how things are done/specifications. You often see money/markets/trends take over. I really wonder what linux will become without Torvalds when he will go away. I hope he…

Most of his current generals are very much the confident type (occasionally even too much so), so I don’t really see a problem there. As long as Linus doesn’t anoint a RedHat employee, things will just keep chugging along.

There are a few that even though they are not RH employees, are very close to RH employees to the point that they would likely look the other way rather than confront like Linus would do.

Re: A regression is the kernel not giving the same result with the same user space

#363
post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Brutal honesty isn't for everyone. I personally grew up with friends who would deal out this kind of thing and I wouldn't feel bullied or humiliated. Sometimes it got to you but, there's no way around that, but over time you learned to develop thicker skin and bounce back without getting feelings hurt. Especially when it's a personality style combined with the fact it comes from a place of caring deeply about the sub…

Yeah but the thing is, I don't see how our points conflict. Yes, by all means people should try to develop a thick skin and would benefit from that throughout life. That would lead to X% improvement and Y% who still were dealt with in a counterproductive way. There's a wide range of capacity for dealing with this stuff. General Macarthur was infinitely strong minded, but when he saw someone with war induced PTSD in a…

> General Macarthur was infinitely strong minded, but when he saw someone with war induced PTSD in a hospital bed he slapped him across the face for being a coward. I give him the benefit of the doubt that his own strength made it difficult to see what was a much less understood thing back then. This case is not even close to PTSD, but the concept is the same in that emotional capacity varies widely, even when we practice resiliency.

I believe you mean General Patton here, not Macarthur. I know this story well and I don't think this came from a place of personal attack either. It came from a place of misunderstanding. This is the critical difference I'm getting at. The personal motivation is what matters, not the lack of preemptive filtering of the words or actions themselves.

The solution there was an evolution of the understanding of PTSD. The General was caring deeply about such an important thing, such as not letting well-trained soldier be a coward and hiding in the hospital when other men are dying in the field. And he saw many young kids die and it made him raw.

It's also been said the General may have had his own PTSD and emotional problems, and he wanted to attack the weaker man who made HIM feel that way.

Ultimately he was wrong factually, for misunderstanding the motivations of the soldier. The soldier wasn't being a coward (AFAIK) but suffering from serious mental trauma. If this happened in 2017 it would be a different story because Patton should have known better and what he did was abusive in that context. AND Patton could also have been better informed about his own risks of behavioral problems if he had modern science and education.

Does this mean Patton's brutal honesty was the problem? Or was it the general understanding of PTSD? I believe the latter.

Ultimately this doesn't mean Patton shouldn't have been brutally honest with his regular troops on the battlefield. Which he was, and he was also brutally effective at running the war too, and he was loved for it by his troops. The guy in the hospital is a different story and should have never happened, but I don't think I would have sacrificed Patton's honesty because society and common sense was wrong about a few subjects.

Re: A regression is the kernel not giving the same result with the same user space

#364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I will never understand why this has been downvoted.

It's a maze of generic crap that no one wants to wade through?

I enjoyed reading it, and grasped meaning in it. What would you call your comment?

Re: A regression is the kernel not giving the same result with the same user space

#365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is also quoted in a Joel Spolsky's article: https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2004/06/13/how-microsoft-lost... I love the 'Raymond Chen Camp's way of looking at things. xx

I really wish all those people chasing the "desktop Linux" mirage while breaking APIs at whim would internalize this. If they want desktop Linux to happen, they need to stop chasing eyecandy and stabilize the plumbing behavior, no matter how much that thought offends their developer pride.

That's really not a problem of the kernel, though, is it?

Also, I think bigger challenges to desktop Linux are the degree of configurability, drivers (maybe that's better), and the fact that the GUI is never a first-class method of using the app but instead a hastily-written wrapper on top of a command line tool.

Re: A regression is the kernel not giving the same result with the same user space

#366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I think you must have worked for some horribly unprofessional companies. I have for sure, but the worst of those companies was better than fortune 5 (if I said exactly, you'd know which company), so while primitive they obviously manage to get results that coddling hasn't. EDIT: And as for walking out, if I were your manager and you broke customer systems and made excuses for 3 weeks about it I wouldn't be yelling a…

Firing somebody for lousy performance & making excuses is an entirely correct and professional response. Berating and profanely insulting them is not.

That sounds like a horrendously selfish attitude.

The problem was fixed; nobody was harmed; lessons were learned. The sum total of effect of this "Linus tirade" seems overwhelmingly positive. But just because he didn't conform to your arbitrary standards, you write him off?

Linus is more humanist in this case than your policy apparently allows.

Re: A regression is the kernel not giving the same result with the same user space

#367
post #49
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting. > Behavioral changes happen, and maybe we don't even support some feature any more. There's a number of fields in /proc/ /stat that are printed out as zeroes, simply because they don't even exist in the kernel any more, or because showing them was a mistake (typically an information leak). But the numbers got replaced by zeroes, so that the code that used to parse the fields still works. The user might n…

> If my application depends on some of those zero'd fields, it seems like that has potential to cause serious debugging problems, as opposed to just causing an error on the parse. if your app didn't used to handle the 'zero' case (assuming zero was a "valid" value for said field), then the app was poorly written and would'be been broken in the first place. However, if the app _did_ handle the 'zero' case, then the ap…

> then the app was poorly written and would'be been broken in the first place.

If you present this argument to Linus, you will certainly get yelled at.

Not breaking the user space means not breaking the user space even when it's broken. A couple years back glibc broke Adobe Flash because Flash used memcpy wrong. Linus was quite vocal about it.

Re: A regression is the kernel not giving the same result with the same user space

#368
post #4

Mercurial, made by another (in my opinion) much more well-spoken kernel hacker, is what really introduced me to the concept that you do not break interface for downstream users, no matter how wrongly you may think they are using the interface. It’s an attitude that is difficult to convey because software developers always want to have the freedom to “improve” their own software, even at the possible cost of breaking…

There are cases where a major change to a software project caused a handful of minor regressions but added new functionality, vastly improved performance in the majority of cases, etc.

In these cases, a Zero Regressions policy is a bit silly. You can flip things around and look at the new code as baseline and from that perspective the old code has many more regressions relative to it.

There seems to be a pretty stark divide between these mindsets.

Re: A regression is the kernel not giving the same result with the same user space

#369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not my job. I report bugs. I'm not getting paid to do that so doing so in my free time to be ignored is a waste of my productivity. I reported the bare-basic problem inherent in the buffer cache which lead to my kernel hardlock exploit and was summarily ignored as non-critical. So I've done my job. It's on Linus now to eat crow and get shit done. That's obviously not happening with his attitude.

But they're elementary bugs you could have just fixed for yourself. You clearly were trying to do something and the mistakes that were made were easily spotted, I'm confused as to why you just didn't do it at the very least for yourself? >That's obviously not happening with his attitude. Seems he's making a lot of things happen with his attitude as evidenced by the thread that was linked.

"But they're elementary bugs you could have just fixed for yourself"

I'm not selfish enough to want something to work for me and only me, thank you. That's why I submitted a bug report.

And that ends up just providing another reason why Linux is a crap OS - everything is done entirely backwards as if everyone on the team learned their entire education the same way RPN is written.

Re: A regression is the kernel not giving the same result with the same user space

#370

"a return to a former or less developed state." See, it's the fact that Linus doesn't even know the real definition of 'regression' that makes me think I cant' trust him or anything he produces. That level of idiocy is simply intolerable.

It is a "less developed state". Software that worked, no longer works. That's what a software regression is . The fact that you don't even understand the definition you quoted makes me...etc etc

No, a software regression is when you fix a specific problem and re-introduce it later on in a code revision. That's literally the definition of a regression bug. That definition has been around since the 70s and I don't think any of you have the designated rights or privileges to change or modify or append that definition.
Post reply on HN