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A regression is the kernel not giving the same result with the same user space

lkml.iu.edu

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Re: A regression is the kernel not giving the same result with the same user space

#351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, but they probably should have been. The events of the past few weeks should serve as a reminder that what's historically been considered 'normal' behaviour in a workplace just because people have gotten away with it doesn't mean it's morally, ethically or legally justifiable.

how is Linus's behaviour not justifiable? The main rule for kernel development is "you don't break userspace' And yet John did. I think Linus is hard on those that break this rule because he has stressed this rule time and time again in the past. Also, refusal to own up to a regression is kind of infuriating.

“now see what you've made me do” is what abusers say, y'know

Re: A regression is the kernel not giving the same result with the same user space

#352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's telling a contributor that their contributions are worthless, cannot be fixed, and other ad-hominem angry insults that just fosters a macho, jockish atmosphere in Linux that has demonstrably alienated capable contributors. Linux is a project of such a massive scale that Linus has to accept kernel commits from circles of trust in his developer community. If someone demonstrates that they don't understand the fu…

I think you're addressing the first half of his objection to Linus' behaviour, not the second half though. I agree with you completely, but I can see how this can be accomplished, i.e. removal of trust and correction (public at that) without the need to demolish the person him/herself. I think we can both agree that it's a fine line though. Personally, "losing your temper" (i.e. something you have to apologize for la…

He has lost his temper needlessly in the past and acknowledged it as something to work on and from my limited perspective it looks like he has.

I don't see this particular rant in question to be a personal attack though. Personally, I don't see a macho, jockish atmosphere to the Linux kernel community either. Also, I'm also not particularly concerned whether an environment is cultivated where anyone feels they can contribute. People contribute to the kernel out of need as well as want.

To directly address the part of the comment about otherwise capable contributors (and the Sarah Sharp example): There's multiple kinds of capability. Technical capability isn't the be-all, end-all in this industry. In fact, I think most of us would say that soft-skills are what differentiate high levels of success in this career. If a company's management culture disagrees with you, then you aren't capable of contributing in that atmosphere.

It's not a matter of either party being to blame but a matter of fit between two parties working towards a mutual goal. I don't think it's remotely fair to say that it's solely Linus's responsibility to facilitate a culture where anyone can feel comfortable contributing. Especially with a project as fundamentally necessary where people will have to contribute, regardless of the culture. If someone's incompatibility with the culture trumps their need to work in it, then yes, they should part ways and that should be perfectly okay.

The same applies to personal relationships, marriages, etc. I think it's good to step back from things from time to time and realize that, ultimately, you're dealing with people and they're not always going to value what you value and they're not always going to give you what you want.

Linus is BDFL. That's all you need to know in four letters. Why are people trying to give ultimatums to God? Seems pointless.

Re: A regression is the kernel not giving the same result with the same user space

#353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, is the answer really that hard? If the "refactor" would break the interface, you can't do it. Maybe you deprecate the old method and make a new one.

How do they handle bug fixing though? What if one application wants a bug fixed, but another application is depending on the bug inadvertently?

That is a situation they work towards never happening, by never leaving a behavior change in the wild long enough for such a situation to develop.

If you look closely at the kernel code it is easy to find two or more syscalls that have names and behaviors that are very similar, but where one is recommended above all the others.This is because the older syscall(s) were found to be flawed.

But rather than break existing software, they introduce a new syscall that fixes said flaws and leave the old one intact and recommend that in the future software use the new syscall.

Re: A regression is the kernel not giving the same result with the same user space

#354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Seriously, it's the kind of garbage that makes me think your opinion and your code cannot be relied on" is, quite bluntly, a personal attack, directly commenting on an entire developer's code history and knowledge based on one single issue. This could be worded a lot better. The profanity is also unnecessary. The rule of thumb I've seen in your typical management oriented business books ( eg, your books / training l…

> Unfortunately, the Linux community as a whole has a reputation in some circles for being overly "hostile" and "toxic". Linus himself has this reputation. How much this reputation dents Linux contribution and usage isn't known, but I doubt anyone can say that this is a positive. Except that it is still being used unlike the other "nice" projects. BeOS. For example.

To be fair, BeOS was killed by Microsoft threatening OEMs into refusing to carry their product. Linux only escaped because it wasn't owned by a corporation that needed revenue to survive.

Re: A regression is the kernel not giving the same result with the same user space

#355
post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I do kernel dev. I am the maintainer of KVM. :) > anyone who expects it not to change is an idiot or just being obtuse If this was the case, Microsoft would have never had to skip from Windows 8 to Windows 10 (see below in another comment: "starts with Windows 9" was used in the wild to detect Windows 95/98).

Eh? The version number changed. MSFT just changed to something not completely predictable in advance. Or am I missing your point?

They _had_ to change it to "10" because there was existing code in the wild that misbehaved for a hypothetical Windows 9.

Re: A regression is the kernel not giving the same result with the same user space

#356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps, but what if the app developer is long gone, and I am a user hoping to keep using my favorite program? Apparently the original Raymond Chen article is gone but I think this quote captures it: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14202707

This is also quoted in a Joel Spolsky's article: https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2004/06/13/how-microsoft-lost... I love the 'Raymond Chen Camp's way of looking at things. xx

I really wish all those people chasing the "desktop Linux" mirage while breaking APIs at whim would internalize this.

If they want desktop Linux to happen, they need to stop chasing eyecandy and stabilize the plumbing behavior, no matter how much that thought offends their developer pride.

Re: A regression is the kernel not giving the same result with the same user space

#357
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does that mean the kernel is not allowed to change version number anymore because I could write an app that segfaults if it sees Linux >= 4.14?

Windows contains code like "If SimCity is running, allow it to use memory after it's been freed"[1] So yes, if you had a significantly deployed app that segfaults because the version number >= 4.14, Linux probably would seriously consider workarounds for your app. 1: https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2004/06/13/how-microsoft-lost...

Also, Microsoft skipped releasing Windows 9 because so much code out there think anything labeled "Windows 9..." is of the Windows 95/98 lineage.

Damn it, you can still install Windows 10 in 32-bit form on a modern x86 CPU and expect win16 binaries to work.

The only reason there is a problem with the 64-bit form is that AMD made the 64-bit mode and the 16-bit mode mutually exclusive. You can jump from 64-bit to 32-bit mode, or from 32 to 16, but not from 64 to 16.

Re: A regression is the kernel not giving the same result with the same user space

#358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We will hopefully have a new kernel written in Rust by someone new.

God, I hope not. Ground-up rewrites (when they even succeed) typically lose features, performance, and security, since they don't have the benefit of 20+ years of correcting mistakes. Plus you lose all your contributors. However, Rust is linker compatible with C, and can be runtimeless, so rewriting the kernel piecemeal over time instead could be great. ;-)

This is what I meant. Any ground up rewrite will be reinventing the wheel and hence too expensive.

Re: A regression is the kernel not giving the same result with the same user space

#359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As someone who's gotten chewed out before, all it does is leave a bad taste in your mouth and most likely going to quit the company or possibly the project. That seems to be his direct intent, and being angry does help get this point across.

I don’t think that’s really what Linus wants (obviously we’re speculating here). He was trying to make it clear that breaking the first rule of kernel development is not negotiable. Anger and swearing isn’t needed to express that, let me reiterate, this is what does that: > the threat of rejecting future commits and/or rejecting his opinions was by far the best thing in Linus' response, b/c those cut straight to your…

His old line about it goes something like this:

When online, people can't tell when you're being subtle.

Re: A regression is the kernel not giving the same result with the same user space

#360
post #268
post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Pretty much the same reason everybody voted for Trump. "Everybody"? Sanders also said a bunch of things like they are, and he said them politely. Especially factoring in grass roots support, he was more popular than Hillary and would have wiped the floor with Trump. If you allow your media and "leaders" to sweep people like Sanders under the rug, you make people like Trump inevitable. And then you still don't learn…

Bernie didn't win. More people voted for Trump than Bernie. One was an asshole, the other wasn't. > Especially factoring in grass roots support, he was more popular than Hillary If that is objectively true, he should have won the primary. He didn't. > and would have wiped the floor with Trump. [CITATION NEEDED] > If you allow > And then you still don't learn > if you insist Why are you calling me out? I didn't vote f…

Bernie didn't get a chance because "everyone" had already decided to go with the "gender issue"...
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