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A regression is the kernel not giving the same result with the same user space

lkml.iu.edu

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Re: A regression is the kernel not giving the same result with the same user space

#211

Post by andyjohnson0 »

vidoc wrote: post #182
andyjohnson0 wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. To me he usually comes across as an asshole, albeit an extremely smart and accomplished one. A working environment where the person at the top can be relied upon to react to human failings with an aggressive, sweary [1] rant is not somewhere I ever want to work. [1] I'm aware that use of profanity in everyday speech is common in Finland. I don't mind swearing per se, but I find its over-use a bit tedious.

> [1] I'm aware that use of profanity in everyday speech is common in Finland. I don't mind swearing per se, but I find its over-use a bit tedious. Actually what you are unaware of, might be that the use of profanity in everyday speech is actually very common pretty much anywhere in the world other than in the US&A where mince words and puritanism are still king.

I'm not unaware of that. I'm from the UK, where we can be fairly fairly crude when the opportunity presents itself.

Re: A regression is the kernel not giving the same result with the same user space

#212

Post by justabystander »

lightedman wrote: post #172
bjourne wrote: post #42

John Johansen will survive. Linus has made it incredibly damn clear what "no user space regressions ever" mean. See f.e the similar rant from 2012: https://lkml.org/lkml/2012/12/23/75 And it is his kernel so it is his rules. John Johansen admitted he messed up ( http://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/1710.3/02539.html ) and promised to handle things better in the future so all is well.

"Linus has made it incredibly damn clear what "no user space regressions ever" mean." Absolute shame he doesn't even know the basic definition of 'regression' and uses the word incorrectly in every way. Breaking shit is simply breaking shit. It's not a regression unless something was broken first, then fixed, then the SAME ISSUE comes back in a later code change.

> It's not a regression unless something was broken first, then fixed, then the SAME ISSUE comes back in a later code change.

No, it's when a change results in unintentional behavior that breaks previously supported scenarios. You might want to double-check your definition. I think you're actually referring to a recurring issue.

Re: A regression is the kernel not giving the same result with the same user space

#213

Post by tertius »

goialoq wrote: post #187
stinos wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> acerbic and direct Isn't this just swearing? > the only thing keeping garbage code out of the kernel. I'm not sure if I'm buying that. It's possible, sure but on the other hand: It's not because the other way (i.e. communicating in a nice way, without all the swearing and direct attacks - which is imo not the same as direct communication ) hasn't been tried that somehow proves it won't work. E.g. I know repos where…

Do people who don't break users and lie about it get yelled at? Why are impolite words worse that actual harmful actions?

Though I don't disagree with Linus' words. He could convey the same thoughts without swearing. I don't swear and I'm very capable of correcting people when they mess up.

Re: A regression is the kernel not giving the same result with the same user space

#214

Post by 13of40 »

megaman22 wrote: post #164

Linus is such a breath of fresh air. I'll take an honest, emotional, impossible to misconstrue, ass-chewing over the alternatives. Too often there's an avoidance of straightforward, blunt speech that conveys exactly what is meant. I really have better things to do than try to parse nonspecific beating-around-the-bush and deconstruct word-castles.

I think a good leader could get the point across without resorting to bullying.

Re: A regression is the kernel not giving the same result with the same user space

#215

Post by res0nat0r »

TallGuyShort wrote: post #192
jordigh wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> John Johansen will survive. We really need to stop excusing Linus's behaviour. Just because we may happen to agree with what he is saying doesn't mean we also have to agree with how he is saying it.

He has previously been unnecessarily insulting, which I don't excuse, but in this case someone caused a problem, and after 3 weeks still does not understand how serious a problem it is. He's addressing it bluntly because that is what is required. He's not being unreasonable.

If it was anyone else we'd be calling them an utter asshole and then citing them as reasons why Silicon Valley has a reputation for .

Linus is still a dick and it isn't funny, refreshing or cool.

Re: A regression is the kernel not giving the same result with the same user space

#217

Post by opmac »

megaman22 wrote: post #164

Linus is such a breath of fresh air. I'll take an honest, emotional, impossible to misconstrue, ass-chewing over the alternatives. Too often there's an avoidance of straightforward, blunt speech that conveys exactly what is meant. I really have better things to do than try to parse nonspecific beating-around-the-bush and deconstruct word-castles.

"At least he tells it like it is" right? Forget that he's an asshole about it. Pretty much the same reason everybody voted for Trump.

Re: A regression is the kernel not giving the same result with the same user space

#218

Post by musage »

jordigh wrote: post #152
bjourne wrote: post #42

John Johansen will survive. Linus has made it incredibly damn clear what "no user space regressions ever" mean. See f.e the similar rant from 2012: https://lkml.org/lkml/2012/12/23/75 And it is his kernel so it is his rules. John Johansen admitted he messed up ( http://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/1710.3/02539.html ) and promised to handle things better in the future so all is well.

> John Johansen will survive. We really need to stop excusing Linus's behaviour. Just because we may happen to agree with what he is saying doesn't mean we also have to agree with how he is saying it.

How about stopping to try to throw wrenches into what he's doing? It's not a hard concept, don't break user space under no circumstances ever, if you do it's a bug. If you cannot understand and know this by heart, don't even fire up your editor, you are not wanted in Linux kernel development. Fork it and PROVE he is not doing it the correct way by spending weeks and months and years of arguing with people who simply will not stop arguing, because you can't tell them to fuck off.

This is the Sphinx asking you an easy question, and if you don't simply give the correct answer she helpfully provided in advance, you get burned to ash. You don't get to stand there arguing, and you certainly don't pass through. Instead complaining about it while someone is still doing it, learn to become so principled where it matters for the time when he can't do it anymore. That's infinitely more important than not swearing if you're older than 6. Have you looked around the world you're living in? Plenty of nuts people with plenty of vested interests. Plenty of weak people feeding them. If "not hurting feelings" is a priority to you, you are a hostage to those who will fake feelings until the cows come home. In turn you do not get to hold those hostage who see through it.

How much of what people use, how much profit does Linux enable? But oh no, the bad man is swearing. Unbelievable. Uninstall everything that has traces of it in it, but spare me your advice on what I need to "stop excusing". There is no aggregate by the way, "we" doesn't have to agree with anything because it doesn't exist. I have my stance, you don't even propose yours.

Re: A regression is the kernel not giving the same result with the same user space

#219

Post by bluejekyll »

megaman22 wrote: post #164

Linus is such a breath of fresh air. I'll take an honest, emotional, impossible to misconstrue, ass-chewing over the alternatives. Too often there's an avoidance of straightforward, blunt speech that conveys exactly what is meant. I really have better things to do than try to parse nonspecific beating-around-the-bush and deconstruct word-castles.

The emotion definitely shows how angry he is, but it is possible to express yourself without getting angry; to be clear, concise, and impossible to misconstrue.

Ass-chewing isn't generally beneficial as it makes people defensive and potentially angry themselves. The mea culpa is good: "And again sorry, I screwed up, it should not have happened, my perspective was incorrect and I know I need to make it right." This is a great response, defuses the conversation and makes it clear that it's going to be fixed.

As someone who's gotten chewed out before, all it does is leave a bad taste in your mouth and most likely going to quit the company or possibly the project. Honestly, the threat of rejecting future commits and/or rejecting his opinions was by far the best thing in Linus' response, b/c those cut straight to your potential to contribute to the project.

Re: A regression is the kernel not giving the same result with the same user space

#220

Post by colechristensen »

jordigh wrote: post #190
Karunamon wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disagree. It seems like Linus’ acerbic and direct means of communicating is the only thing keeping garbage code out of the kernel. He’s also made his views on “why not be nicer” well known. People need to get over it - his project, his rules. Plenty of other projects out there to hack on if getting yelled at when you disengage your brain is too much. Most of which don’t have the obsession with not breaking stuff for…

Matt Mackall, another cranky kernel hacker, showed me a lot about how it's possible to say "no" to many eager changes that would have broken Mercurial and not be yelling obscenities about it. Linus is no role model. His imprecations are not what make Linux work.

You can have lots of theories about what would or wouldn't make Linux work, but the facts on the ground are that Linux is wildly successful, and Linus behaves as he does. The latter has been an integral part of the former.
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