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A regression is the kernel not giving the same result with the same user space

lkml.iu.edu

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Re: A regression is the kernel not giving the same result with the same user space

#161

Post by GlennS »

dingo_bat wrote: post #81

I'm always eager to read Linus's rants. I wish more of my coworkers were like him. I hate the environment where nobody reacts strongly to anything! If somebody fucks up hard and refuses to own up, I (or whoever's in charge) should be able to shout at them. It's only natural.

I've worked at a place where people shouted at each other and had angry rants.

It was shit. I left.

A boss who gets stressed out, or who transmits and amplifies other people's stress around the office, is not doing their job properly.

Re: A regression is the kernel not giving the same result with the same user space

#162

Post by steveklabnik »

majewsky wrote: post #145
Cshelton wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By sizable fraction, he is referring to Cargo.io, Rust's public package repository. They literally run all tests against every crate published to the package ecosystem. That is amazing.

Makes you wonder why no-one else came up with that idea before. I mean, it is pretty revolutionary, but also really obvious in hindsight.

http://cpantesters.org/

Re: A regression is the kernel not giving the same result with the same user space

#163

Post by notheguyouthink »

hyperpape wrote: post #74
chii wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If my application depends on some of those zero'd fields, it seems like that has potential to cause serious debugging problems, as opposed to just causing an error on the parse. if your app didn't used to handle the 'zero' case (assuming zero was a "valid" value for said field), then the app was poorly written and would'be been broken in the first place. However, if the app _did_ handle the 'zero' case, then the ap…

There are many cases where continuing with invalid data is much worse than a parse error. Perhaps that's less likely in this case (hopefully your credit card payment doesn't depend on the values in /proc/ /stat), but as a rule, silently continuing with meaningless data is scary.

Yea that's what I was thinking. If the behavior changes, what "works" entirely depends on the context of that specific application. I can understand mitigating complete failures as much as possible, but trying to trick programs into thinking that they're running the same as they were before seems.. well, scary as hell. I'm honestly not sure what's worse - breaking the application, or making it think everything is fine.

Re: A regression is the kernel not giving the same result with the same user space

#164

Post by megaman22 »

Linus is such a breath of fresh air. I'll take an honest, emotional, impossible to misconstrue, ass-chewing over the alternatives. Too often there's an avoidance of straightforward, blunt speech that conveys exactly what is meant. I really have better things to do than try to parse nonspecific beating-around-the-bush and deconstruct word-castles.

Re: A regression is the kernel not giving the same result with the same user space

#166

Post by __david__ »

jsjohnst wrote: post #79
piker wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting. > Behavioral changes happen, and maybe we don't even support some feature any more. There's a number of fields in /proc/ /stat that are printed out as zeroes, simply because they don't even exist in the kernel any more, or because showing them was a mistake (typically an information leak). But the numbers got replaced by zeroes, so that the code that used to parse the fields still works. The user might n…

Having had to fix a number of production issues where a change happened XX days ago but the code just silently kept going rather than breaking, I’m sorta of the mind to agree with you. I’d almost rather it break hard, so then I know it’s broke and can fix it. Very nuanced situation though and as such definitely not one size fits all.

That's fine when it's code that you wrote, but it would be really annoying to me as a user if htop (for example) started crashing on a kernel upgrade (instead of one the columns suddenly being zero).

Re: A regression is the kernel not giving the same result with the same user space

#167

Post by nix0n »

emodendroket wrote: post #89
piker wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting. > Behavioral changes happen, and maybe we don't even support some feature any more. There's a number of fields in /proc/ /stat that are printed out as zeroes, simply because they don't even exist in the kernel any more, or because showing them was a mistake (typically an information leak). But the numbers got replaced by zeroes, so that the code that used to parse the fields still works. The user might n…

Perhaps, but what if the app developer is long gone, and I am a user hoping to keep using my favorite program? Apparently the original Raymond Chen article is gone but I think this quote captures it: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14202707

Raymond Chen's URLs have changed but the original articles [0][1] are still available.

[0]https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/20031015-00/?p=...

[1]https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/20031223-00/?p=...

Re: A regression is the kernel not giving the same result with the same user space

#168

Post by Karunamon »

jordigh wrote: post #152
bjourne wrote: post #42

John Johansen will survive. Linus has made it incredibly damn clear what "no user space regressions ever" mean. See f.e the similar rant from 2012: https://lkml.org/lkml/2012/12/23/75 And it is his kernel so it is his rules. John Johansen admitted he messed up ( http://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/1710.3/02539.html ) and promised to handle things better in the future so all is well.

> John Johansen will survive. We really need to stop excusing Linus's behaviour. Just because we may happen to agree with what he is saying doesn't mean we also have to agree with how he is saying it.

Disagree. It seems like Linus’ acerbic and direct means of communicating is the only thing keeping garbage code out of the kernel. He’s also made his views on “why not be nicer” well known. People need to get over it - his project, his rules.

Plenty of other projects out there to hack on if getting yelled at when you disengage your brain is too much. Most of which don’t have the obsession with not breaking stuff for the end user...

Re: A regression is the kernel not giving the same result with the same user space

#169

Post by andyjohnson0 »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #124
andyjohnson0 wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. To me he usually comes across as an asshole, albeit an extremely smart and accomplished one. A working environment where the person at the top can be relied upon to react to human failings with an aggressive, sweary [1] rant is not somewhere I ever want to work. [1] I'm aware that use of profanity in everyday speech is common in Finland. I don't mind swearing per se, but I find its over-use a bit tedious.

I don’t. He’s effectively using certain emotions to clearly broadcast his point.

Understood. But what happens if everyone in an organisation reacts in the same way? Is it a useful leadership style?

Re: A regression is the kernel not giving the same result with the same user space

#170

Post by kadenshep »

jordigh wrote: post #152
bjourne wrote: post #42

John Johansen will survive. Linus has made it incredibly damn clear what "no user space regressions ever" mean. See f.e the similar rant from 2012: https://lkml.org/lkml/2012/12/23/75 And it is his kernel so it is his rules. John Johansen admitted he messed up ( http://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/1710.3/02539.html ) and promised to handle things better in the future so all is well.

> John Johansen will survive. We really need to stop excusing Linus's behaviour. Just because we may happen to agree with what he is saying doesn't mean we also have to agree with how he is saying it.

I agree with how he's saying it. He's being honest. He's letting you know where he stands and what the rule is, without any kind of hidden message or room for interpretation. The other guy? Not being so honest.
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