I'm always eager to read Linus's rants. I wish more of my coworkers were like him. I hate the environment where nobody reacts strongly to anything! If somebody fucks up hard and refuses to own up, I (or whoever's in charge) should be able to shout at them. It's only natural.
A regression is the kernel not giving the same result with the same user space
81–90 of 408 posts
Re: A regression is the kernel not giving the same result with the same user space
#82Mercurial, made by another (in my opinion) much more well-spoken kernel hacker, is what really introduced me to the concept that you do not break interface for downstream users, no matter how wrongly you may think they are using the interface. It’s an attitude that is difficult to convey because software developers always want to have the freedom to “improve” their own software, even at the possible cost of breaking…
> you do not break interface for downstream users, no matter how wrongly you may think they are using the interface
How does Linux manage to never break its API? For example in the event of a refactoring.
Re: A regression is the kernel not giving the same result with the same user space
#83Mercurial, made by another (in my opinion) much more well-spoken kernel hacker, is what really introduced me to the concept that you do not break interface for downstream users, no matter how wrongly you may think they are using the interface. It’s an attitude that is difficult to convey because software developers always want to have the freedom to “improve” their own software, even at the possible cost of breaking…
> you do not break interface for downstream users, no matter how wrongly you may think they are using the interface How does Linux manage to never break its API? For example in the event of a refactoring.
I mean, is the answer really that hard? If the "refactor" would break the interface, you can't do it. Maybe you deprecate the old method and make a new one.
Re: A regression is the kernel not giving the same result with the same user space
#84Mercurial, made by another (in my opinion) much more well-spoken kernel hacker, is what really introduced me to the concept that you do not break interface for downstream users, no matter how wrongly you may think they are using the interface. It’s an attitude that is difficult to convey because software developers always want to have the freedom to “improve” their own software, even at the possible cost of breaking…
Minor point, but he puts Python in with software that "almost never breaks" on update. Really? Am I missing something? Maybe he just hasn't tried running Python 3 yet...
If you're talking about Python 2 -> 3, I think you're misunderstanding his point.
Re: A regression is the kernel not giving the same result with the same user space
#85Mercurial, made by another (in my opinion) much more well-spoken kernel hacker, is what really introduced me to the concept that you do not break interface for downstream users, no matter how wrongly you may think they are using the interface. It’s an attitude that is difficult to convey because software developers always want to have the freedom to “improve” their own software, even at the possible cost of breaking…
If only compiler developers had this attitude.
Do they not? It certainly seems to be a guiding principle of C# compiler developers, who have almost always opted to preserve unintended quirks of the compiler/spec rather than "fix" them.
Re: A regression is the kernel not giving the same result with the same user space
#86> "We simply do not break userspace"
Wish this would be a goal for more of the application environment on Linux than just the kernel.
Re: A regression is the kernel not giving the same result with the same user space
#87Earlier quoted context omitted.
You need to work in a wider variety of workplaces, if you genuinely believe that. Perhaps put another way: were Jobs or Ballmer ever escorted out for their obnoxious behaviours?
No, but they probably should have been. The events of the past few weeks should serve as a reminder that what's historically been considered 'normal' behaviour in a workplace just because people have gotten away with it doesn't mean it's morally, ethically or legally justifiable.
When you create something and someone else comes and tries to improve it but fucks up and then tries to fix that by breaking some of the use cases for which you'd created your something in the first place, I'm going to cut you some slack if you go on a rant about what the correct solution is for your product.
I would expect you to do the same for Linus and his Linux, just as so many people do (did) for Steve Jobs and his Apple products.
Re: A regression is the kernel not giving the same result with the same user space
#88In any other kind of social/business arrangement he would be politely but firmly escorted out, possibly by security, for this kind of behavior. Being right or wrong is irrelevant.
Linus lashing out about something is usually tamer than most social and business blowups I have seen. The thing that really stands out is that he is usually right, gives clear direction, and only cares about the project.
Re: A regression is the kernel not giving the same result with the same user space
#89Linus's followup post later on in the thread explains his position in more detail and is a pretty good read: http://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/1710.3/02487.html
Interesting. > Behavioral changes happen, and maybe we don't even support some feature any more. There's a number of fields in /proc/ /stat that are printed out as zeroes, simply because they don't even exist in the kernel any more, or because showing them was a mistake (typically an information leak). But the numbers got replaced by zeroes, so that the code that used to parse the fields still works. The user might n…
Perhaps, but what if the app developer is long gone, and I am a user hoping to keep using my favorite program? Apparently the original Raymond Chen article is gone but I think this quote captures it: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14202707
Re: A regression is the kernel not giving the same result with the same user space
#90Mercurial, made by another (in my opinion) much more well-spoken kernel hacker, is what really introduced me to the concept that you do not break interface for downstream users, no matter how wrongly you may think they are using the interface. It’s an attitude that is difficult to convey because software developers always want to have the freedom to “improve” their own software, even at the possible cost of breaking…
Minor point, but he puts Python in with software that "almost never breaks" on update. Really? Am I missing something? Maybe he just hasn't tried running Python 3 yet...
He says Python packages, many of which bend over backwards to maintain backwards compatibility. (I wish Django were one of them)