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Chuck Moore, Extreme Programmer

cs.uni.edu

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Re: Chuck Moore, Extreme Programmer

#121

Post by exikyut »

hdhzy wrote: post #120
throwaway7645 wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is what I like about Rebol & Red...pity Rebol didn't catch on more. The full Rebol download is a single executable (no real install) and can build GUIs, and so much more in a very small amount of code.

Not to mention Red can cross compile for multiple OSes and the parse dialect that is basically generalized, readable regular expressions. My personal theory why Rebol/Red didn't succeed in the mainstream is steep learning curve, it's hard to discover how to do things if you haven't already done some substantial programming work in it. While built-in help is good you need to know what you're looking for. (Delphi had b…

Open it (click the duration), and click vouch. Arc has some (necessarily-)undocumented flagging code, and it frequently backfires.

The worst-case scenario is when you open the account in question and every single comment is grey... it hurts to see. (In that case, the account itself has been flagged. Not quite the same as reddit's shadowbanning, but only technically not the same.)

It's bittersweet that the moderation here is paid: there are AFAIK only two people (but don't quote me on that). There were some hazy plans to give some users fractionally elevated capabilities at some point, but it just hasn't happened yet.

Re: Chuck Moore, Extreme Programmer

#122

Post by exikyut »

throwaway7645 wrote: post #89
feelin_googley wrote: post #16

The "Do Not Speculate!" idea reminds me of the practice of delivering "the kitchen sink" when only a small program that does one thing would suffice. It reminds me of when, e.g., a 1990s-2000s Windows user needed a small program that does one thing, and in order to get it, the download from Microsoft was an installer with hundreds of megabytes of unneeded binary files. It was not possible to download only the single…

This is what I like about Rebol & Red...pity Rebol didn't catch on more. The full Rebol download is a single executable (no real install) and can build GUIs, and so much more in a very small amount of code.

Kdb (the weird line-noise functional programming language) is similar. The trial version is a 200KB binary.

Re: Chuck Moore, Extreme Programmer

#123

Post by kgwgk »

HumanDrivenDev wrote: post #73
tailrecursion wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Forth IS different in one way, from most other languages. The syntax doesn't mark which parameters are being passed to which functions. In C for example you have parentheses and commas that provide that information to the reader. The marking of parameters-to-functions helps most readers read a program and determine its meaning. In some cases it doesn't matter which parameters are going to which functions, and the rea…

I've often thought about an editor for a stack/concatenative language that makes the arity of words clearer. like when you select a word it highlights which of the previous words in the definition it's consuming. I don't know if it would work for forth - too low level - but for something like Factor I could see it being really useful.

I’m surprised this is the only reference to Factor (http://factorcode.org).

Re: Chuck Moore, Extreme Programmer

#124

Post by hdhzy »

exikyut wrote: post #121
hdhzy wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to mention Red can cross compile for multiple OSes and the parse dialect that is basically generalized, readable regular expressions. My personal theory why Rebol/Red didn't succeed in the mainstream is steep learning curve, it's hard to discover how to do things if you haven't already done some substantial programming work in it. While built-in help is good you need to know what you're looking for. (Delphi had b…

Open it (click the duration), and click vouch . Arc has some (necessarily-)undocumented flagging code, and it frequently backfires. The worst-case scenario is when you open the account in question and every single comment is grey... it hurts to see. (In that case, the account itself has been flagged. Not quite the same as reddit's shadowbanning, but only technically not the same.) It's bittersweet that the moderation…

Thanks a lot for this tip! Actually I'm amazed on how little workforce is necessary to keep this place running. I'm browsing with showdead on and rarely see the flagging backfires like this one.

Re: Chuck Moore, Extreme Programmer

#125

Post by progman »

astrobe_ wrote: post #117
feelin_googley wrote: post #16

The "Do Not Speculate!" idea reminds me of the practice of delivering "the kitchen sink" when only a small program that does one thing would suffice. It reminds me of when, e.g., a 1990s-2000s Windows user needed a small program that does one thing, and in order to get it, the download from Microsoft was an installer with hundreds of megabytes of unneeded binary files. It was not possible to download only the single…

"Do not speculate" or YAGNI is really difficult to do past a certain point. You have to vanquish your own FUD one piece at a time. Nobody really does that unless they are really forced to. Ignore the occasional statements in forum threads about how Forth is so powerful. Forth is not powerful. It is ugly, stupid and mean. Because of this, you simplify, simplify and simplify again, up to the project's specs if you can.

> Forth is not powerful. It is ugly, stupid and mean.

That's a statement of someone who doesn't understand Forth. Of course, one can write ugly code easily. Any language with raw power (Asm, C, Forth, Ada) needs a disciplined developer to get beautiful and maintainable code. Forth code can be really beautiful if the vocabulary is well thought out.

I consider Forth the best choice for tiny iOT devices, Firmware, and other essential things which can be kept simple and stupid, following the KISS principle which works very well in many cases.

Our vastly proliferated software security problems come from complexity which developed by despising the KISS principle. Many developers didn't choose the simplest way, they chose the most convenient way. Now, we realize that keeping things simple and stupid is not that bad after all.

Re: Chuck Moore, Extreme Programmer

#126

Post by spinningarrow »

hdhzy wrote: post #120
throwaway7645 wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is what I like about Rebol & Red...pity Rebol didn't catch on more. The full Rebol download is a single executable (no real install) and can build GUIs, and so much more in a very small amount of code.

Not to mention Red can cross compile for multiple OSes and the parse dialect that is basically generalized, readable regular expressions. My personal theory why Rebol/Red didn't succeed in the mainstream is steep learning curve, it's hard to discover how to do things if you haven't already done some substantial programming work in it. While built-in help is good you need to know what you're looking for. (Delphi had b…

> didn’t succeed in the mainstream

Is that true of Red? I was playing with it the other day and it looked really promising, and I was under the impression that it’s still quite new and hasn’t reached 1.0 (my point is that it might not be at a stage where we can write it off).

Re: Chuck Moore, Extreme Programmer

#127

Post by throwaway7645 »

spinningarrow wrote: post #126
hdhzy wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to mention Red can cross compile for multiple OSes and the parse dialect that is basically generalized, readable regular expressions. My personal theory why Rebol/Red didn't succeed in the mainstream is steep learning curve, it's hard to discover how to do things if you haven't already done some substantial programming work in it. While built-in help is good you need to know what you're looking for. (Delphi had b…

> didn’t succeed in the mainstream Is that true of Red? I was playing with it the other day and it looked really promising, and I was under the impression that it’s still quite new and hasn’t reached 1.0 (my point is that it might not be at a stage where we can write it off).

Yea, sorry bout that. Red isn't 1.0 yet and I have very high hopes for it. I meant just Rebol (ancestor of Red) in my earlier post and corrected it.

Re: Chuck Moore, Extreme Programmer

#128

Post by progman »

Cyph0n wrote: post #17
andrewla wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> from scratch This is even understating it -- it's not like he used existing software to lay out the chip, and then ran tests using PSPICE to verify the functionality. He wrote his own chip design software and analog simulator, and designed the chip in his own environment, and created the CPU, the GA144: a working 144-core processor designed to run "ArrayForth", a parallel version of Forth that he designed and autho…

> He wrote his own chip design software and analog simulator I'm going to need a citation for that. I browsed through the website and wasn't able to find anything at all mentioning the development of a full EDA software suite. There are only a handful of companies in the world that can build and maintain a full HDL + synthesis + P&R + layout + verification toolchain... Also, I would be interested to know what kind of…

> 'm going to need a citation for that.

"My VLSI tools take a chip from conception through testing. Perhaps 500 lines of source code. Cadence, Mentor Graphics do the same, more or less. With how much source/object code?

– Chuck Moore, the inventor of Forth

Source: http://yosefk.com/blog/my-history-with-forth-stack-machines....

500 lines are actually possible since Forth words are threaded. That means, any new defined word w can take advantage of all available predefined words. Follwing words can take advantage of w, etc. Forth words are not just simple procedures but they can also comprise new syntax structures. Forth words can be "procedures" or "macros", and both can be mixed freely.

Threaded code was the main reason why Forth was so successful in the first years when memory costs were a real issue.

Re: Chuck Moore, Extreme Programmer

#129

Post by throwaway7645 »

PeCaN wrote: post #104
throwaway7645 wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is what I like about Rebol & Red...pity Rebol didn't catch on more. The full Rebol download is a single executable (no real install) and can build GUIs, and so much more in a very small amount of code.

I'm always amazed when I see things like Red, with a 1MB executable with an interpreter, compiler, GUI, networking libraries, parsing libraries, and more all built in. Or the QNX demo disk back in the day. OS, GUI, web browser (with javascript), full clustering support, and more, on a single 1.44MB floppy.

I've heard of the QNX OS...that seems magical.

Re: Chuck Moore, Extreme Programmer

#130

Post by oneeyed »

progman wrote: post #125
astrobe_ wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Do not speculate" or YAGNI is really difficult to do past a certain point. You have to vanquish your own FUD one piece at a time. Nobody really does that unless they are really forced to. Ignore the occasional statements in forum threads about how Forth is so powerful. Forth is not powerful. It is ugly, stupid and mean. Because of this, you simplify, simplify and simplify again, up to the project's specs if you can.

> Forth is not powerful. It is ugly, stupid and mean. That's a statement of someone who doesn't understand Forth. Of course, one can write ugly code easily. Any language with raw power (Asm, C, Forth, Ada) needs a disciplined developer to get beautiful and maintainable code. Forth code can be really beautiful if the vocabulary is well thought out. I consider Forth the best choice for tiny iOT devices, Firmware, and o…

Forth is an amplifier. Bad programmers will write very bad programs, good programmers will write very good programs.
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