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Chuck Moore, Extreme Programmer

cs.uni.edu

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Re: Chuck Moore, Extreme Programmer

#21

Post by com2kid »

feelin_googley wrote: post #16

The "Do Not Speculate!" idea reminds me of the practice of delivering "the kitchen sink" when only a small program that does one thing would suffice. It reminds me of when, e.g., a 1990s-2000s Windows user needed a small program that does one thing, and in order to get it, the download from Microsoft was an installer with hundreds of megabytes of unneeded binary files. It was not possible to download only the single…

> It reminds me of when, e.g., a 1990s-2000s Windows user needed a small program that does one thing, and in order to get it, the download from Microsoft was an installer with hundreds of megabytes of unneeded binary files. It was not possible to download only the single program, which was no more than 1-2MB in size.

That might have been more to do with how hard publishing code to the web was back then, an internal process problem, which discouraged tiny stand alone exes from being put online.

Re: Chuck Moore, Extreme Programmer

#22

Post by lobf »

wyattk wrote: post #9

I want to take a moment to reflect on what a great community HN has. It never ceases to amaze me. The link is from the CS department at the University of Northern Iowa in Cedar Falls, IA. It sounds obscure, but that's my hometown. I grew up a couple blocks away from it. I sat in on classes there. I even know the author's family. That's small town Iowa, for ya. I never thought I would see anything related to that on h…

> References middle-class suburban Iowa

> This is truly a place for all.

Edit- sorry I reminded you guys that there are other life experiences again.

Re: Chuck Moore, Extreme Programmer

#23

Post by Cyph0n »

Avshalom wrote: post #20
Cyph0n wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He wrote his own chip design software and analog simulator I'm going to need a citation for that. I browsed through the website and wasn't able to find anything at all mentioning the development of a full EDA software suite. There are only a handful of companies in the world that can build and maintain a full HDL + synthesis + P&R + layout + verification toolchain... Also, I would be interested to know what kind of…

I don't know how much of the usual stack it accounts for or if it specifically was used for the GA144 but they're referring to OKAD, often talked about as in hundreds/thousands of lines of colorforth https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Moore+okad+forth&t=fpas&ia=web

Before I put on my cynical hat, I'd like to say that it's pretty impressive stuff for a one-man shop in the 90s.

-----

So it seems like OKAD is basically a layout editor, simulator, DRC checker, and GDSII compiler. The simulator uses a very simplistic transistor model that would only work at very old process nodes (>350nm?) due to the low impact of parsitics and leakage.

Not even a moderately complex digital chip from the mid-90s could be designed and verified using such a simplistic toolchain.

To provide a software analogy, Chuck wrote an assembler for a custom assembly dialect targeting e.g. x86, and then directly used that assembler to build an operating system kernel. Given the absence of "higher-level" constructs, the resulting OS will never be as complex as something like an NT kernel, especially due to the difficulty of testing and verification.

Going back to circuit design, OKAD will never be able to design a complex digital chip on a state-of-the-art process. It's really nothing more than a simplistic EDA toolchain that would only work on simplistic circuits and fabrication processes.

A modern EDA toolchain from e.g. Cadence is many orders of magnitude more complex.

Re: Chuck Moore, Extreme Programmer

#24

Post by protomyth »

Forth was always fun for me because it really was fun to build up a dictionary of words that solved your problem. It practically forced coming at the problem from the bottom. I do admit that I liked some aspects of Postscript better than Forth, but both are experiences.

Thinking Forth is a pretty good starting point and in general a great programming book http://thinking-forth.sourceforge.net/

Re: Chuck Moore, Extreme Programmer

#25

Post by nortiero »

Cyph0n wrote: post #23
Avshalom wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know how much of the usual stack it accounts for or if it specifically was used for the GA144 but they're referring to OKAD, often talked about as in hundreds/thousands of lines of colorforth https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Moore+okad+forth&t=fpas&ia=web

Before I put on my cynical hat, I'd like to say that it's pretty impressive stuff for a one-man shop in the 90s. ----- So it seems like OKAD is basically a layout editor, simulator, DRC checker, and GDSII compiler. The simulator uses a very simplistic transistor model that would only work at very old process nodes (>350nm?) due to the low impact of parsitics and leakage. Not even a moderately complex digital chip fro…

And ?

Re: Chuck Moore, Extreme Programmer

#26

Post by Avshalom »

Cyph0n wrote: post #23
Avshalom wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know how much of the usual stack it accounts for or if it specifically was used for the GA144 but they're referring to OKAD, often talked about as in hundreds/thousands of lines of colorforth https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Moore+okad+forth&t=fpas&ia=web

Before I put on my cynical hat, I'd like to say that it's pretty impressive stuff for a one-man shop in the 90s. ----- So it seems like OKAD is basically a layout editor, simulator, DRC checker, and GDSII compiler. The simulator uses a very simplistic transistor model that would only work at very old process nodes (>350nm?) due to the low impact of parsitics and leakage. Not even a moderately complex digital chip fro…

>>modern EDA toolchain from e.g. Cadence is many orders of magnitude more complex.

Moore considers that a mangitude of bugs not features.

http://yosefk.com/blog/my-history-with-forth-stack-machines....

Has some good quotes on it if you scroll down to the end

Re: Chuck Moore, Extreme Programmer

#27

Post by Cyph0n »

nortiero wrote: post #25
Cyph0n wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Before I put on my cynical hat, I'd like to say that it's pretty impressive stuff for a one-man shop in the 90s. ----- So it seems like OKAD is basically a layout editor, simulator, DRC checker, and GDSII compiler. The simulator uses a very simplistic transistor model that would only work at very old process nodes (>350nm?) due to the low impact of parsitics and leakage. Not even a moderately complex digital chip fro…

And ?

TL;DR Not really as impressive as it was made out to be.

Re: Chuck Moore, Extreme Programmer

#28

Post by atotic »

I've worked with another Forth disciple in the late 80s.

He was on a PC, and thought that my Mac GUI was neat. So he wrote a portable GUI framework from scratch in Forth that had dialogs, buttons, pull down menus, text inputs, graphics, mini Mac clone. It was magic. I think it was way under 100K.

After that, I really wanted to become a Forth wizard. I tried, but it never clicked, my code was very clumsy, write only. I admired my coworker as an almost alien intelligence.

I think it really works well for coders spiritually close to hardware.

Re: Chuck Moore, Extreme Programmer

#29

Post by trhway »

Cyph0n wrote: post #23
Avshalom wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know how much of the usual stack it accounts for or if it specifically was used for the GA144 but they're referring to OKAD, often talked about as in hundreds/thousands of lines of colorforth https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Moore+okad+forth&t=fpas&ia=web

Before I put on my cynical hat, I'd like to say that it's pretty impressive stuff for a one-man shop in the 90s. ----- So it seems like OKAD is basically a layout editor, simulator, DRC checker, and GDSII compiler. The simulator uses a very simplistic transistor model that would only work at very old process nodes (>350nm?) due to the low impact of parsitics and leakage. Not even a moderately complex digital chip fro…

>Given the absence of "higher-level" constructs, the resulting OS will never be as complex as something like an NT kernel

i wonder whether you've worked with Forth - in my view of Forth (spent 1987-89 mostly in Forth running on 8088 clone based terminal of USSR clone of IBM 360, so Forth is my second language after mandatory Pascal and the first true "computer" love really) what you said is a huge advantage and natural characteristic of Forth, not a deficiency. Everything in the Forth world is like Salvador Dali's clock face plates - flexible/pliable/flowing and you build whatever "higher-level" constructs and complexity levels you need right now and leave them behind the moment you don't need them anymore, create and destroy worlds as you go... In comparison to that the static monstrosity like NT kernel is just dead dusty world of an ancient complex tech civilization who died off under the weight of its own complex tech.

To Cyph0n below: man, as an enterprise programmer for 25 years i completely understand and agree with you. As that Forth programmer enjoying it 3 decades ago i can only say to you - you just don't get it :)

Re: Chuck Moore, Extreme Programmer

#30

Post by jacquesm »

Cyph0n wrote: post #27
nortiero wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And ?

TL;DR Not really as impressive as it was made out to be.

You're entirely missing the point made by Chuck Moore and by extension probably don't understand why his way of looking at programming and the Forth language in particular are a big deal even this long after their invention.

This kind of minimalism and stripping things down to their essence is a powerful tool to allow you to focus on what matters rather than at all those things that don't really matter. If you don't actually need 4 GHz chips and billions of transistors to get the job done then why would you?

Reliability and simplicity go hand-in-hand.

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