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Show HN: Airborn – Private Google Docs Alternative

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Re: Show HN: Airborn – Private Google Docs Alternative

#101

Post by twiss »

woranl wrote: post #95
twiss wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it can, but whenever the Service Worker's code changes, the user is warned. There's an "updatefound" event [1] which both the web page and the old Service Worker get. I wrote a blog post with more background info at [2]. Of course, it would be better to only warn the user if the Service Worker changes if it doesn't match the version on GitHub, but that's blocked on [3]. Furthermore, there are some very edge-case…

The concept of Transparent Web Apps (TWA) is an interesting one - more so than AirbornOS itself. Any chance of packaging it (i.e. in the form of library, or make it as a SaaS) to promote adoption? This can enable more TWA and perhaps pivot yourself to become the TWA hub/directory.

Yes, I'm planning to make a library for it. It won't be quite install-and-forget, because the developer has to 1) push to GitHub or another public log before every deploy and 2) somehow let the Service Worker know where to find the latest version on GitHub. But it's definitely possible.

A TWA hub sounds interesting. I think that if you have a list of web apps that

1. are a Transparent Web App

2. have had a security audit

you could then add some UI in the browser that says "this web app keeps your data private". That would be useful not just for apps that use client-side encryption, but also very simple web apps, like say word counters. It's very useful for users to know whether the word counter sends their data to the server or not.

Of course, step 2 would be quite expensive, although for simple web apps it would be manageable. It would have to be financed by either the web apps themselves, or some big entity like Mozilla (which for years has had volunteers manually check browser extensions for things like this, too).

Re: Show HN: Airborn – Private Google Docs Alternative

#102

Post by twiss »

pramodzion wrote: post #97

Looks very old school and you use iFrame ! Must be a product from the 2000s but releasing now ?

Sandboxed iframes are a modern and useful feature to isolate and secure different parts of a web app: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTML/Element/if...

But thanks for the feedback. The UI can definitely be improved further, but it would be a lot of work to make it look similar to e.g. Google Docs.

Re: Show HN: Airborn – Private Google Docs Alternative

#103

Post by hueving »

ttul wrote: post #17
amenghra wrote: post #3

Good timing with Google incorrectly flagging some Docs as abusive? ( https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/zmz3yw/why-is-my-... )

When you were running an operation at Google scale, the challenge of fighting fraud is something that people who have not worked at that scale can only imagine. These guys will also encounter fraud at some point. And when they do so, I guarantee they will be no better at it than Google this.

You just made a perfect argument for why the Google design is inadequate. It centralizes way too much power to make them the target of lawyer and it makes them the arbiter of acceptability as well.

Re: Show HN: Airborn – Private Google Docs Alternative

#104

Post by dandr01d »

kinlan wrote: post #37
twiss wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The line that's supposed to tell you what it is is: "Create and edit f​iles online​, securely​." Is that missing for you? (I admit it's smaller and less noticeable than the lines you quoted. I'll try making it more prominent.) A bit of explanation about the name here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15596668

I was confused too... Then I realised it takes about 10 seconds to appear as you animate the text in.

The iOS 11 Calculator designer strikes again!

Re: Show HN: Airborn – Private Google Docs Alternative

#105

Post by twiss »

jimktrains2 wrote: post #96
twiss wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When it leaves our server, the data is encrypted and not readable. To get your encryption key, they would need to execute code in your browser, and we describe how we protect against that at https://www.airbornos.com/docs/security . Of course, we're only talking about when our server gets hacked. If your computer gets hacked, you have a problem regardless of whether you're using a web app or a native app.

> To get your encryption key, they would need to execute code in your browser, You mean like all the javascript you're sending me? > To solve this, we're using a relatively new web technology (Service Workers) to install some code which can't be changed without setting off a warning to you. That code then keeps taps on all other code, and checks that it matches the publicly available version on GitHub. I really think…

> If an attacker has access to your server, why should I believe that they wouldn't be able to update your github repository?

I don't have my GitHub password/keys on the server. Why would I have them there?

> I have to trust you _regardless_ of any of your technology, and that's the problem.

Yes, but it's trust-on-first-use. There's a big difference between

1. Trusting me today when I say that the GitHub keys are not on my server,

2. Trusting me today when I say that I'm not sending your password to the server, and being able to verify that by checking the code on GitHub

and

1. Trusting me every time you open the web app

2. Trusting me and my hosting company that I won't ever get hacked

Re: Show HN: Airborn – Private Google Docs Alternative

#106

Post by woranl »

twiss wrote: post #84
woranl wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can service worker’s code ever be updated by the hacker? How does this actually work?

Yes, it can, but whenever the Service Worker's code changes, the user is warned. There's an "updatefound" event [1] which both the web page and the old Service Worker get. I wrote a blog post with more background info at [2]. Of course, it would be better to only warn the user if the Service Worker changes if it doesn't match the version on GitHub, but that's blocked on [3]. Furthermore, there are some very edge-case…

What if the hacker changes the HTML file to point to their evil version of JavaScript file without ever triggering the Service Worker’s cache? Will that defeat the security feature?

Re: Show HN: Airborn – Private Google Docs Alternative

#107

Post by TimTheTinker »

twiss wrote: post #31
bengotow wrote: post #18

This looks great! Minor nits: In what way is this an OS? Also in the US, Airborn (e.g. to be in the air) is spelled "Airborne" and it's difficult to type it without the trailing 'e' without spellcheck fixing it automagically.

The most significant ways in which it's a bit like an OS are 1. It has a Window Manager (try it out in the demo, you can drag around windows and such) 2. It has a File System, which does encryption and compression. This makes it so that the "apps" (documents and presentations, and in the future hopefully spreadsheets) don't have to know anything about encryption. This made it very easy to port the presentations app,…

May I suggest Air Docs?

Re: Show HN: Airborn – Private Google Docs Alternative

#108

Post by twiss »

woranl wrote: post #106
twiss wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it can, but whenever the Service Worker's code changes, the user is warned. There's an "updatefound" event [1] which both the web page and the old Service Worker get. I wrote a blog post with more background info at [2]. Of course, it would be better to only warn the user if the Service Worker changes if it doesn't match the version on GitHub, but that's blocked on [3]. Furthermore, there are some very edge-case…

What if the hacker changes the HTML file to point to their evil version of JavaScript file without ever triggering the Service Worker’s cache? Will that defeat the security feature?

No, the HTML file itself goes through, and is checked by, the Service Worker as well. https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Service_Wor...:

> A service worker is (...) intercepting and modifying navigation and resource requests

Re: Show HN: Airborn – Private Google Docs Alternative

#109

Post by woranl »

twiss wrote: post #108
woranl wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if the hacker changes the HTML file to point to their evil version of JavaScript file without ever triggering the Service Worker’s cache? Will that defeat the security feature?

No, the HTML file itself goes through, and is checked by, the Service Worker as well. https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Service_Wor... : > A service worker is (...) intercepting and modifying navigation and resource requests

Oh yes, as if it was an offline app when initiated. Interesting. You should really make this more broadly available and perhaps build service around it. If you can make it security sounded, then I’m sold. Perhaps, it solves the trust issue of JavaScript. For the fun of it, maybe throw in some blocktrain tech or something to enhance that trust model of yours. Would love to see how this gets developed.

Re: Show HN: Airborn – Private Google Docs Alternative

#110

Post by twiss »

woranl wrote: post #109
twiss wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the HTML file itself goes through, and is checked by, the Service Worker as well. https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Service_Wor... : > A service worker is (...) intercepting and modifying navigation and resource requests

Oh yes, as if it was an offline app when initiated. Interesting. You should really make this more broadly available and perhaps build service around it. If you can make it security sounded, then I’m sold. Perhaps, it solves the trust issue of JavaScript. For the fun of it, maybe throw in some blocktrain tech or something to enhance that trust model of yours. Would love to see how this gets developed.

> Perhaps, it solves the trust issue of JavaScript.

Yes, that is the intention :)

> For the fun of it, maybe throw in some blocktrain tech or something to enhance that trust model of yours.

Instead of using GitHub as a public log, it's possible to use a publicly verifiable cryptographic log: https://wiki.mozilla.org/Security/Binary_Transparency

That would move the trust from GitHub to that public log. However, GitHub provides us not just the "publicly verifiable update" part, but also the "authenticated update" part. In other words, how do you know that the person putting something in a blockchain is the owner of the website? You'd need a public key, and then not lose it, etc. But it's indeed possible.

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