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Microsoft Presenter Gives Up on Edge, Installs Chrome

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Re: Microsoft Presenter Gives Up on Edge, Installs Chrome

#81

Post by WorldMaker »

jsgo wrote: post #75
WorldMaker wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you expect Linux users at your workplace to still be running Ubuntu 9.10 (Karmic Koala)? Or to be a bit more generous, Windows 7 SP1 is closer to Ubuntu 11.04 (Natty Narwhal). Neither of which have been supported for at least half a decade. Even Windows 8.1's equivalent Ubuntu 14.10 (Utopic Unicorn) fell out of support two years ago. Though arguably that's intentionally unfair because Ubuntu 14.04 (Trusty Tahr)…

While I agree with your main point, I find it odd that you'd even factor in the non-LTS/bleeding edge releases of Ubuntu vs Windows (10). The closest I can think of in the Windows world would be Windows Insider builds but those are a bit more akin to nightly releases (though that characterization is a bit unfair to Windows Insider). Yes, you qualify that with the "intentionally unfair" but I fail to see what it adds…

I feel like I did address this criticism in the middle of my comment, even if perhaps I glossed over, both with the "unfair" jab and the hand-wavy "more than half a decade" mention because I glanced at the LTS support numbers, too. I made sure I included the only .04 LTS release as old as either Windows 7 or Windows 8.1 that was still in support (until 2019).

[For completion's sake: 8.04 (Hardy Heron) is the roughly closest Ubuntu LTS to Windows 7, and hasn't been supported since 2013. 10.04 (Lucid Lynx) was the closest LTS to Windows 7 SP 1, and also hasn't been supported since 2013 (on Desktop).]

I used the more closely aligned dates because Windows and Ubuntu have been aligned to similar-ish 6 month cycles for a while now and especially in Windows 10. It's interesting that the LTS equivalents are in opposite parts of the cycle with Ubuntu LTS in the Spring and Windows LTS in the Fall. But even accounting for LTS versus LTS, the fact of the matter is that Windows extended security support still dwarfs the comparable Ubuntu timeframes and few are complaining that Ubuntu's support windows are too short. Of Desktop LTS support, Microsoft's seems almost by far the longest of any Desktop OS/distribution and no one is expecting Desktop support for even a Linux LTS distribution support like they expect from Windows.

Re: Microsoft Presenter Gives Up on Edge, Installs Chrome

#82

Post by WorldMaker »

catach wrote: post #70
WorldMaker wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you expect Linux users at your workplace to still be running Ubuntu 9.10 (Karmic Koala)? Or to be a bit more generous, Windows 7 SP1 is closer to Ubuntu 11.04 (Natty Narwhal). Neither of which have been supported for at least half a decade. Even Windows 8.1's equivalent Ubuntu 14.10 (Utopic Unicorn) fell out of support two years ago. Though arguably that's intentionally unfair because Ubuntu 14.04 (Trusty Tahr)…

As another data point, RHEL 5, released two years before Windows 7, apparently has paid support available through 2020. I agree with you though that migrations increase in pain the longer they're put off.

I looked it up because I was curious. [1] Apples to apples it looks like Windows "extended support" is closer to RHEL "Production Phase 3" support (not to be confused with RHEL's "extended support" which is vaguely "we'll keep the wikis lit and maybe answer if you hear ghosts"), so by that measure RHEL 5 ended "Phase 3" support in March of this year. With Windows 7 getting another 3 years of "Phase 3" support it looks about like RHEL and Windows' timeframes are very similar in this case.

[1] https://access.redhat.com/support/policy/updates/errata/

Re: Microsoft Presenter Gives Up on Edge, Installs Chrome

#83

Post by WorldMaker »

vetinari wrote: post #77
WorldMaker wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you expect Linux users at your workplace to still be running Ubuntu 9.10 (Karmic Koala)? Or to be a bit more generous, Windows 7 SP1 is closer to Ubuntu 11.04 (Natty Narwhal). Neither of which have been supported for at least half a decade. Even Windows 8.1's equivalent Ubuntu 14.10 (Utopic Unicorn) fell out of support two years ago. Though arguably that's intentionally unfair because Ubuntu 14.04 (Trusty Tahr)…

So maybe people would be more willing to migrate, if the new version respected their privacy? Unless there is no option to keep the chattiness of the system only to user-initiated connections (and keep that option on the same value after updates!), many people simply won't migrate.

Windows 10 FCU (the version released this month) continued the trend of making the privacy options as explicit as possible (and making them much more opt-in in the onboarding/setup process). Microsoft also apologized about updates resetting privacy options to defaults.

YMMV, but I feel that Windows 10 is respectful about my privacy and that Microsoft has been working to address every concern people have had.

Have you tried the FCU recently or do you intend to keep grinding the same ax from two years ago indefinitely?

Re: Microsoft Presenter Gives Up on Edge, Installs Chrome

#84

Post by WorldMaker »

WorldMaker wrote: post #81
jsgo wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I agree with your main point, I find it odd that you'd even factor in the non-LTS/bleeding edge releases of Ubuntu vs Windows (10). The closest I can think of in the Windows world would be Windows Insider builds but those are a bit more akin to nightly releases (though that characterization is a bit unfair to Windows Insider). Yes, you qualify that with the "intentionally unfair" but I fail to see what it adds…

I feel like I did address this criticism in the middle of my comment, even if perhaps I glossed over, both with the "unfair" jab and the hand-wavy "more than half a decade" mention because I glanced at the LTS support numbers, too. I made sure I included the only .04 LTS release as old as either Windows 7 or Windows 8.1 that was still in support (until 2019). [For completion's sake: 8.04 (Hardy Heron) is the roughly…

(Reply to point out my own cultural bias before others do: technically both Windows and Ubuntu LTS is their respective Fall release, because the two are headquartered in opposite hemispheres. Which is one interesting explanation to the six month-difference between the two groups.)

Re: Microsoft Presenter Gives Up on Edge, Installs Chrome

#85

Post by bsder »

WorldMaker wrote: post #63
leeoniya wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

we have 7.5% IE11 traffic on our ecommerce site (US, diy home remodeling). more than Edge which is ~5%. 7.5% is a huge number.

IE11 traffic includes Windows 7 users. Windows 8.1 users is a tiny fraction of that 7.5% as most of that is likely Windows 7 since that's the new Windows XP that corporations will use for as long as it has security support because they are afraid of change. ETA: Plus the people that missed the Windows 10 free upgrade for Windows 7 (intentionally or accidentally).

Well, if Microsoft would quit spying on people and quit intentionally breaking things they might not have to fight to get people to upgrade.

As things stand, Windows 7 is probably the last Windows several companies I know are going to use unless Microsoft coughs up something before they get forced to upgrade. Win 10 is sufficiently different that they are actually considering Linux.

And, with the fact that everybody is moving to WebApps (hack, spit), it probably doesn't matter.

Re: Microsoft Presenter Gives Up on Edge, Installs Chrome

#86

Post by vetinari »

WorldMaker wrote: post #83
vetinari wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So maybe people would be more willing to migrate, if the new version respected their privacy? Unless there is no option to keep the chattiness of the system only to user-initiated connections (and keep that option on the same value after updates!), many people simply won't migrate.

Windows 10 FCU (the version released this month) continued the trend of making the privacy options as explicit as possible (and making them much more opt-in in the onboarding/setup process). Microsoft also apologized about updates resetting privacy options to defaults. YMMV, but I feel that Windows 10 is respectful about my privacy and that Microsoft has been working to address every concern people have had. Have you…

Yes, I do have one machine with Windows 10, yes, it is updated to Fall Creators Update and yes, I did have to rerun the clean up script, because the preferences were reset again (not talking only about privacy related ones).

But thank you for reminding me, that any criticism not towing the party line is met with derision.

Re: Microsoft Presenter Gives Up on Edge, Installs Chrome

#87

Post by WorldMaker »

vetinari wrote: post #86
WorldMaker wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Windows 10 FCU (the version released this month) continued the trend of making the privacy options as explicit as possible (and making them much more opt-in in the onboarding/setup process). Microsoft also apologized about updates resetting privacy options to defaults. YMMV, but I feel that Windows 10 is respectful about my privacy and that Microsoft has been working to address every concern people have had. Have you…

Yes, I do have one machine with Windows 10, yes, it is updated to Fall Creators Update and yes, I did have to rerun the clean up script, because the preferences were reset again (not talking only about privacy related ones). But thank you for reminding me, that any criticism not towing the party line is met with derision.

My criticism was not meant to be derision. It was genuine curiosity to ask how up-to-date you have tried to be. "Privacy issues" still seems like every other comment about Windows 10 here on HN and elsewhere like Ars Technica and The Verge. It's a very repetitive refrain at this point (y'all are quite a vocal minority).

It's also a criticism that I'm having an increasingly hard time understanding or sympathizing with, because the privacy tools in Windows 10 do continue to get better and more transparent with each update. I am starting to wonder if this criticism is simply the easiest excuse available (because it will always be hard to 100% satisfy a tinfoil hat that "there are no magic hidden NSA bugs"; I read Slashdot for long enough to know how deep that rabbit hole sometimes goes), and that there is no actual way to satisfy this criticism, it will just continue to haunt every time Windows 10 is even remotely brought up in conversation for the rest of time.

Re: Microsoft Presenter Gives Up on Edge, Installs Chrome

#88

Post by WorldMaker »

bsder wrote: post #85
WorldMaker wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IE11 traffic includes Windows 7 users. Windows 8.1 users is a tiny fraction of that 7.5% as most of that is likely Windows 7 since that's the new Windows XP that corporations will use for as long as it has security support because they are afraid of change. ETA: Plus the people that missed the Windows 10 free upgrade for Windows 7 (intentionally or accidentally).

Well, if Microsoft would quit spying on people and quit intentionally breaking things they might not have to fight to get people to upgrade. As things stand, Windows 7 is probably the last Windows several companies I know are going to use unless Microsoft coughs up something before they get forced to upgrade. Win 10 is sufficiently different that they are actually considering Linux. And, with the fact that everybody…

The Ghost Stories of Windows XP we will tell around the campfire for decades to come seem to indicate that companies will always hard-headed stick with Windows versions beyond their useful lifetime. "Quit spying" seems like a red herring in that regard, because if that wasn't the easy excuse there are more right behind ("our apps don't work"; "the new app system is hard"; "we hired a VB6 programmer once in 1999 and we know this app is critical to our business but we don't expect to put our money where our mouth is and hire someone to update it for 2017"; etc).

Re: Microsoft Presenter Gives Up on Edge, Installs Chrome

#89

Post by vetinari »

WorldMaker wrote: post #87
vetinari wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I do have one machine with Windows 10, yes, it is updated to Fall Creators Update and yes, I did have to rerun the clean up script, because the preferences were reset again (not talking only about privacy related ones). But thank you for reminding me, that any criticism not towing the party line is met with derision.

My criticism was not meant to be derision. It was genuine curiosity to ask how up-to-date you have tried to be. "Privacy issues" still seems like every other comment about Windows 10 here on HN and elsewhere like Ars Technica and The Verge. It's a very repetitive refrain at this point (y'all are quite a vocal minority). It's also a criticism that I'm having an increasingly hard time understanding or sympathizing with…

Apple was able to create exactly two checkboxes in the system settings:

1. Allow telemetry 2. Allow sharing telemetry data with third-parties.

There was no need to "improve privacy tools". There is simply an option to not send anything. You don't need to research "what's new in this version". One checkbox, done, forever. The result is verifiable on the firewall.

I'm sure, that if Microsoft did the same, including respecting the setting, everyone would be happy wrt telemetry.

And then we could discuss forced updates.

Re: Microsoft Presenter Gives Up on Edge, Installs Chrome

#90

Post by TylerH »

zamalek wrote: post #57
Klathmon wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've talked to some people on the team who works on Edge, and they are a fantastic group of people. They know they are in an uphill battle, and everyone is writing them off, but they are doing damn good work. Edge's performance is getting leaps and bounds faster every update, they are doing incredible things for battery life on many devices, they are catching up to google for web API support, and nobody is taking the…

> they are doing damn good work. I've been using it for a while. Overall, it feels significantly faster than any Chromium-based browser I've used. Chrome, Brave, etc. are simply no longer good enough. That being said, I'm considering switching to Quantum. Edge breaks the 1Password plugin[1] and Microsoft is closing the bugs "as designed" or they have lost all traction. Breaking a password manager relegates the entire…

Was Brave ever good enough? I thought it was just Brendan Eich's swan song
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