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If you were hacking since age 8, it means you were privileged

geekfeminism.org

71–80 of 96 posts

Re: If you were hacking since age 8, it means you were privileged

#71
I was hacking since before I was 8, and my family wasn't well off back then (although my dad's computer skills did get us to that point many years later). Of course, that young hacking still hasn't gotten me anywhere special yet at the age of 27.

If you read the article though, it's more directly addressing the issue that computing as a male geeky hobby at a young age has shaped and defined the current computing culture, and that is undeniably true.

Changing, yes, but not changed enough, yet.

Re: If you were hacking since age 8, it means you were privileged

#72
post #37

Screw you lady. I'm tired of you and your "social justice" cabal that try to make me feel guilty about EVERYTHING. I started programming in high school and I've worked my fucking ass off getting to where I am. Your article does nobody any fucking good. All it does is try to make certain people feel guilty about their success and gives everyone else an excuse to not work hard because "well, the cards are just stacked…

I think you've misread the article. You have worked hard, which is great. Other people have also worked hard, but they started later and had fewer opportunities in this field. Does this mean you should feel guilty? No. It means that you should try to treat everyone with respect, not just the lucky ones who had the right kind of access to the right kind of tools as children. It means sneering at that person in class who doesn't know what a for-loop is is unhelpful and jerky. If you don't behave that way, you have nothing to be ashamed of.

Re: If you were hacking since age 8, it means you were privileged

#73

Despite being excessive at points ("disgusting flaunting of privilege") I think the article points out a real problem. In my experience, the only way to fill this gap is to actively--as adult programmers--"bootstrap" the computing lives of lower class children in our communities. For example, I volunteer with a church ministry that refurbishes old machines, installs Ubuntu, and gives them / grants them to those who n…

I have a desktop PC left over that would probably even be good for gaming (Athlon 64 3000+) but I have been unable to find anybody who wants it (Berlin, Germany). It's low on RAM but I would be willing to stock up if anybody wants it. I don't have a Windows license left over, so it currently runs Ubuntu.

Re: If you were hacking since age 8, it means you were privileged

#74
Ok, I'll add my anecdote too. Hacking != Having a personal computer. I started programming on my 3rd grade (required-to-have) programmable calculator (that had 10 steps & comparison to 0 only). Then, my father showed me Pascal on his computer at work (and programmers in the 1980s Soviet Union did not upper middle class make; plumbers made more), and I started programming on paper, and bringing in my paper programs to my father's work to "check". Then, the school I went to was a special math school (merit, not privilege) and they got computers (the only school computers in our city then) in my 4th grade. When we came to the United States, we were on welfare, so, no personal computer till I was in college. And yet, the schools had computers, you know. Granted, old macs, but computers.

The reason the "anecdote" is relevant is that the article doesn't state any probabilities or historical context here, it's just "If A, then B". There were plenty of periods in America when that couldn't have been true even for most people. E.g., in 1970s, if you were hacking, it didn't mean privilege, just luck in having access somehow. If you're learning to hack _now_ as a child... Come on, pretty much anyone can get access to some type of device now, even if it's just in the library.

Re: If you were hacking since age 8, it means you were privileged

#75
Those feminist brains are so warped: "There is a subset of boys and men who burn with a passion for computers and computing. Through the intensity of their interest, they both mark the field as male and enshrine in its culture their preference for single-minded intensity and focus on technology."

I am supposed to feel guilty for what? Being intensely interested? Because that is something girls can't do?

Re: If you were hacking since age 8, it means you were privileged

#76
This is true for almost everything. In poor households, the children are generally required to perform more work to help support the household. For example, the cleaning lady at my work brings her son with her to help... can't be more than 14. Even if he had a computer, thats 2-3 hours everyday that he can't be using it, or practicing basketball, or whatever else he might succeed in. Poor parents also can't pay for coaching, etc.

This article boils down to: privileged people are privileged. True, by definition, but also meaningless.

Re: If you were hacking since age 8, it means you were privileged

#77

Interesting how many of the comments in this thread take the form of "This article is bullshit! I started coding when I was eight because I got my first computer by way of [something other than privilege or affluence]." Because if you've been coding since you were eight then you should probably know by now the difference between anecdotes and data. [Full disclosure: I did my first hacking with BASIC and Rexx at aroun…

I've just personally known so many professional programmers who grew up in a barely-middle-class household. Myself included. (Not that one more anecdote is needed, but I remember getting a Commodore computer one Christmas, and getting a hard drive the next Christmas, and the whole thing was hooked up to an old black and white TV.)

Also, I've worked with some good programmers who learned to program in college. Yes, the competition is tough, but that's because programmers tend to be smart, not because they've been programming since they were 8, necessarily.

The premise of the article just completely

Re: If you were hacking since age 8, it means you were privileged

#78

I wouldn't say privileged, but certainly lucky. My father worked very hard on the railroad for his money. He wasn't 'privileged' himself, either; he came from a poor family and rose to the middle class by working like a dog. Also, I knew some 'very poor' kids who had these machines. Funny, I don't remember them being expensive (but what did I know; I was 8 ;) Maybe they were; I'm too lazy to research it.

He was "privileged", it's just that the term has a particular meaning when used here that is different from "rich" or "wealthy" which you and it seems every other poster in the thread so far has missed.

There's a fairly comprehensive introduction to it here:

http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2007/03/11/faq-what-...

"Since social status is conferred in many different ways — everything from race to geography to class — all people are both privileged and non-privileged in certain aspects of their life. Furthermore, since dynamics of social status are highly dependent on situation, a person can benefit from privilege in one situation while not benefiting from it in another. It is also possible to have a situation in which a person simultaneously is the beneficiary of privilege while also being the recipient of discrimination in an area which they do not benefit from privilege.

Male privilege is a set of privileges that are given to men as a class due to their institutional power in relation to women as a class. While every man experiences privilege differently due to his own individual position in the social hierarchy, every man, by virtue of being read as male by society, benefits from male privilege."

That's just male privilege, you get others from class, sexuality, religion, health etc.

Re: If you were hacking since age 8, it means you were privileged

#79
post #32

That is simply not true. We weren't poor growing up but we were not far from it (at least according to the Western standards). I remember having to eat only once a day and wearing clothes with holes in them because we couldn't afford to go clothes shopping. My father, a good engineer with a university degree lost his job after the Soviet collapse and my mom had to work 2 janitor jobs. However, if my father knew someo…

"My father, a good engineer with a university degree"

Are you sure you (and those who upvoted) know what social class is? To be fair there are many definitions, but having a university degree would be put your father as middle class in most of them.

"All it matters is to have good parents who really support and nurture education."

And that's in most cases parents who themselves are educated, which has been shown in countries with free education.

"That is simply not true."

Just because you have a different experience doesn't mean you're the norm or that the argument is invalid.

Re: If you were hacking since age 8, it means you were privileged

#80
post #4

oh wow, this article is bound to get flogged on HN ;) before the onslaught begins, i'd like to add my own short anecdote. reading this article reminds me of when i took my first CS course as a freshman in college over a decade ago ... i remember that there were clearly 2 groups of students (i belonged to the latter): - those who, like this article describes, had hacked since a young age (sorry for the gross generaliz…

The same attitude is effaced on HN about persons in liberal arts studies. A hacker was brilliant enough to see that the world was headed into computers, or their parents were, and they were led down the right path.

People are bound to want to claim that people deserve what they get, it justifies their wealth, and comforts them in the face of another's misfortune.

Anyone who had access to a computer at 8, whether their parents worked hard to buy it, or had flows of wealth, was damn lucky, and needs to recognize that they are damn lucky. Anyone smarter than the average has to recognize that they're damn lucky. And if there's any posthumanists in the crowd, they should figure its quickly in their interest to view society from a perspective where the weak get supported: we're all of us quickly falling into the category of the weak.

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