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Why does American medicine still run on fax machines?

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Re: Why does American medicine still run on fax machines?

#32
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Security by presumed obscurity. We have a winner.

Security by obscurity isn't military grade security but it's a lot better than insecurity by non-obscurity if those are your only two options.

Sure, but it's incredibly rare that such a neat dichotomy exists. In reality, there are plenty of alternatives, yet we stick to ones we perceive as more secure. I've heard the argument that fax is preferred over email because "you can just edit an email", and this highlights the issue. The difficulty bar is raised just a tiny bit for fax, yet the scrutiny is dropped right down.

Re: Why does American medicine still run on fax machines?

#33
post #8

And so insecure too, my fax machine's number used to be 1 digit off from a pharmacy's .... I used to get more faxes of other people's private prescriptions than genuine faxes intended for me

Point taken, but given the hacks I'm almost certain that while fax machines are insecure, at least the damage is very limited /targeted. Now just imagine an EquiHealth hack...AIDs diagnoses, other STD, infertility, etc etc records out there--forever.

Re: Why does American medicine still run on fax machines?

#35
post #34

America's infrastructure is behind in many ways. Bank transfers are arcane, no chip n pin, fax machines, etc. etc. I'm moving through West Africa, where these problems have been solved 2+ years ago.

America's infrastructure is behind other developed countries because once upon a time it was AHEAD of it's time. When you have a legacy infrastructure that is good enough it is harder to justify the cost of replacing it with something else. African countries, or Eastern European ones didn't have this dillema because they didn't have a legacy infrastructure to deal with.

Re: Why does American medicine still run on fax machines?

#36
post #35
post #34

America's infrastructure is behind in many ways. Bank transfers are arcane, no chip n pin, fax machines, etc. etc. I'm moving through West Africa, where these problems have been solved 2+ years ago.

America's infrastructure is behind other developed countries because once upon a time it was AHEAD of it's time. When you have a legacy infrastructure that is good enough it is harder to justify the cost of replacing it with something else. African countries, or Eastern European ones didn't have this dillema because they didn't have a legacy infrastructure to deal with.

[deleted]

Re: Why does American medicine still run on fax machines?

#37
post #12

At least part of it is that no one has come up with a document format that suits everyone. Doctors want to scribble notes with a stylus but when you digitize that you don't really gain anything, other systems don't know how to interpret those scribbles. Suggesting doctors enter fields into a form instead of scribbling notes will get you no where, doctors are the stupidest and most stubborn smart people you will come…

> Suggesting doctors enter fields into a form instead of scribbling notes will get you no where,

Maybe in the US, but in the UK and Ireland, all my doctors notes have been typed into a system that is shared among all the doctors in the practice. Last time I went for for an MRI i was given a CD with the mri on it, and I brought it with me to my next appointments.

> doctors are the stupidest and most stubborn people you will come across

That’s not fair. When I was in university most of the old professors still used overhead projectors and taught the same course from 20 years ago. When I bought my house my solicitor faxed everything, and posted me out the originals of the documents I needed, which took up an entire a4 binder. Developers seem almost bipolar; on one hand you have the “must use shiny new tech” and on the other hand, you have people who won’t update third party libraries ever. We’re still stuck with the same representations of data that we had 40 years ago, and broadly the same basic tools. C and C++ still literally copy and paste header files when including them, all in the name of backwards compatibility.

My (long winded) point being, all professions have their own stubborn qualities, and pinning it on old people or a specific profession is wrong

Re: Why does American medicine still run on fax machines?

#38
post #35
post #34

America's infrastructure is behind in many ways. Bank transfers are arcane, no chip n pin, fax machines, etc. etc. I'm moving through West Africa, where these problems have been solved 2+ years ago.

America's infrastructure is behind other developed countries because once upon a time it was AHEAD of it's time. When you have a legacy infrastructure that is good enough it is harder to justify the cost of replacing it with something else. African countries, or Eastern European ones didn't have this dillema because they didn't have a legacy infrastructure to deal with.

All western countries had faxes, magnetic strip cards, paper check payments, etc. And most of them have no traces of that.

I think there must be some other element to it as well, and it's probably not only "well US is big". I think one is the diversity of states and companies. Having tons of systems and businesses communicating over several state borders with varying regulations, it's very easy to just settle with the lowest common denominator which might be faxes, cash etc.

Second I think it's a big cultural difference. In the EU for example (Which is looked on with at least as much suspicion as "federal government" in the US) we see it as an important job of central government to put agressive timelines for introduction of modern tech. Because things like this (chip + pin) for example is a herd immunity thing where the cost to upgrade is only motivated if customers actually have the cards etc - so we are very happy to see legislation requiring non-chip credit cards to be phased out, for example. Technological advance like this, or environment rules etc., is NOT seen as overreach, where a lot of other laws would be.

Third it's the power of corporations in relation to government. If corporate lobbyists see that a regulation will affect their bottom line (such as all of retail having to buy chip+pin equipment within 3 years) they protest. In the EU, there is just no chance that a retail lobby would be able to resist EU legislation that was advertised as good for consumers.

Re: Why does American medicine still run on fax machines?

#39
post #6

What should they use instead? Email isn't secure enough. Email got not forced TLS/GPG upgrade (compared to the web's HTTPS)

Create a protocol or API spec on top of HTTPS or something else and use it. I don't know where you ar at but surely the government can just say "hey guys support this secure protocol before 2022 or you're out". I can log on and read any of my medical records at any time and the information is aggregated from multiple sources. What's the issue? If you use fax you won't even be able to see some kind of central audit lo…

> Create a protocol or API spec on top of HTTPS or something else and use it.

This is basically what they've done with EDI/X12 over AS2, which was also mandated by HIPAA. The problem is that EDI is a pain to work with as a data format and hooking up to other trading partners can take weeks of coordination between IT teams (sending "implementation guidelines" back and forth). When EDI is the alternative it's not hard to see how the fax machine survives.

Re: Why does American medicine still run on fax machines?

#40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They've heard of it, but aren't going to use it. Email is generally not encrypted when stored at rest in many hops along the way, which should be considered insecure. While fax is unencrypted, it's generally not stored in any intermediate systems and has established history of being considered HIPAA compliant.

Security by presumed obscurity. We have a winner.

It's a bit more complicated than that. The real story is a combination of:

1. US health care privacy law (primarily HIPAA) has an "analog hole" of sorts. Basically, the security rules around phone/fax communications are far simpler and easier (and thus cheaper!) to comply with than the rules around things like digital networking. So people look at this, see that faxing things and then scanning them (or even paying people to do manual data entry) is cheaper than using more modern techniques and incurring compliance costs for the stricter security rules.

2. Doctors don't upgrade technology unless they have to. New systems cost money, and they don't want to spend money. Fax machines are established, understood, cheap. And they are actually one of the least scary things about the health system -- you don't want to know how many doctors are managing their records and interacting with insurance websites through IE on Windows XP, or even worse setups.

3. For all the crap you might throw at faxing as a way to do things, you have to admit it's easy. Electronic health record systems are a nightmare of badly-specified, horrendously complicated formats that no two vendors ever implement the same way. When consumers of electronic records, like insurers, sign up for clearing-house services a good bit of what they're paying for is getting to make this someone else's problem.

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