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If you were hacking since age 8, it means you were privileged

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Re: If you were hacking since age 8, it means you were privileged

#61

Post by abstractbill »

mattlanger wrote: post #58

Interesting how many of the comments in this thread take the form of "This article is bullshit! I started coding when I was eight because I got my first computer by way of [something other than privilege or affluence]." Because if you've been coding since you were eight then you should probably know by now the difference between anecdotes and data. [Full disclosure: I did my first hacking with BASIC and Rexx at aroun…

Because if you've been coding since you were eight then you should probably know by now the difference between anecdotes and data.

And if you've been coding since eight, you should also know that it takes only one counterexample to disprove a claim that X always implies Y.

Re: If you were hacking since age 8, it means you were privileged

#62

Post by mcs »

I'm going to be that guy, but I disagree with that as well. I lived in a very poor area in Southeast Texas and built my first computer (literally) from junk parts I found in ditches. I had a little help but it was pretty easy to figure out since everything had notches to make sure everything goes in the right place.

I was 8, coincidence here.

With a pirated Windows 98se from my mom's boyfriend at the time, it worked out alright. I tied up my mom's phone line with netzero, and that's when I started my adventure into the web.

Edit: For clarification, I had built a 233mhz machine with 32mB of ram. I put 98se on it because I hadn't learned of linux yet, and it probably would have been too much for me at that time anyway. Ubuntu didn't exist.

Around age 10 we finally got DSL, and by that time I had gathered up enough money to build a "real" machine, with an Athlon XP. Again, with all pirated software.

Software piracy enables more to younger poor people than your parents being wealthy in my opinion. Not saying it's right, but it sure allowed me to do things I otherwise wouldn't have been able to do.

That article is more relevant for people that grew up in the 80s, when hardware was less available than it is today. I started my adventure in the 2000s.

I'm 18 now, work for a startup, and I have quite a little nestegg from social marketing apps I've built in the last few years. Nothing my family did really had any effect on my interest in computers.

Re: If you were hacking since age 8, it means you were privileged

#63

Post by dgordon »

dgabriel wrote: post #19
jerf wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've had a computer for a long time, but looking back, when I was 8 I was lower-middle to middle-middle class at best. I say "looking back" because I didn't really realize it at the time, but in hindsight it's pretty clear. My dad bought a Commodore 64 not because he was rolling in filthy upper-class lucre, but because he saw the future coming and made that a priority for himself. And it had been out for a while befo…

Please don't miss the point: you had the opportunity, as did many of your middle class peers, to discover your aptitude for computers at an early age. This is not an opportunity afforded to children in low income homes. You are not required to apologize for this. Please don't. Just recognize it for what it is, and be grateful you had an early chance to discover something you love. My 8 year-old and I are starting a s…

I agree that "recognize it for what it is and be grateful for it" is the right reaction to having had an opportunity that a lot of people didn't have, but it's much different from the attitude of this and similar articles.

Good luck with that project -- if you find even one kid like that or anywhere close, you'll have done a lot of good.

Re: If you were hacking since age 8, it means you were privileged

#64

Post by jafran »

nathanielksmith wrote: post #54

Despite being excessive at points ("disgusting flaunting of privilege") I think the article points out a real problem. In my experience, the only way to fill this gap is to actively--as adult programmers--"bootstrap" the computing lives of lower class children in our communities. For example, I volunteer with a church ministry that refurbishes old machines, installs Ubuntu, and gives them / grants them to those who n…

This is totally awesome.

It draws a real contrast between programmers and the article's author(s). Academic style discourse never attempts to propose any solutions or valorize any sort of action whatsoever. Instead, the point is mainly to grandstand and to call out everyone. Those of higher socio-economic standing are always at fault, those of lower are always blameless/helpless/or otherwise without agency.

Re: If you were hacking since age 8, it means you were privileged

#65

Post by dgabriel »

nathanielksmith wrote: post #54

Despite being excessive at points ("disgusting flaunting of privilege") I think the article points out a real problem. In my experience, the only way to fill this gap is to actively--as adult programmers--"bootstrap" the computing lives of lower class children in our communities. For example, I volunteer with a church ministry that refurbishes old machines, installs Ubuntu, and gives them / grants them to those who n…

My son and I are doing the exact same thing, on a smaller scale out of our basement in conjunction with the public school.

Re: If you were hacking since age 8, it means you were privileged

#66

Post by mattkern »

jcapote wrote: post #20

Bull. Shit. When I was 8 years old, I started computing, but not at all because I was privileged. Just because someone has a computer at a young age doesn't mean they're parents went out and bought a state of the art computer. As an immigrant family we couldn't afford much in the way of leisure, but they at least knew a good deal when they saw one. So, when they saw a "computer" at the local flea market for a $100, t…

Seriously. My parent were broke, too, and they went to some spiel on a timeshare to get a blisterkey timex mini computer thing (this by the way is how we got our family toaster, as well). But it spoke basic. And I started there. With a free POS computer that was more like a calculator.

Arguments about privilege and CS degrees are apologetic and sound an awful lot like excuse-making.

Access means a lot, but it's irresponsible to alienate entire classes with broad-stroke generalizations. This is the same sort of crap that makes the Left look so lame. And I can't quite get the intent behind the post. If it's simply to increase access, then that's a noble cause. But it sure seemed more like whining.

Re: If you were hacking since age 8, it means you were privileged

#67

Post by mattkern »

JanezStupar wrote: post #49

Whatever, moar feminist fascism. I did get my first computer when I was age 8. That was back in 1991 and all I got was nearly 10 year old ZX Spectrum. I guess I WAS privileged, but the privilege was that my parents, although old (mother was 41 when she conceived) and uneducated, they both only have primary schools - father is barely literate, mother heavily dyslectic. But they have seen the future and wanted a piece…

Sorry, but hardly fascism. It's appalling how few people actually know what fascist means.

Re: If you were hacking since age 8, it means you were privileged

#68

Post by dgabriel »

jafran wrote: post #64
nathanielksmith wrote: post #54

Despite being excessive at points ("disgusting flaunting of privilege") I think the article points out a real problem. In my experience, the only way to fill this gap is to actively--as adult programmers--"bootstrap" the computing lives of lower class children in our communities. For example, I volunteer with a church ministry that refurbishes old machines, installs Ubuntu, and gives them / grants them to those who n…

This is totally awesome. It draws a real contrast between programmers and the article's author(s). Academic style discourse never attempts to propose any solutions or valorize any sort of action whatsoever. Instead, the point is mainly to grandstand and to call out everyone. Those of higher socio-economic standing are always at fault, those of lower are always blameless/helpless/or otherwise without agency.

I agree that the project is awesome, but without those who criticize and analyze, no thought gets put into how to make the world better.

Note: there is no "fault." There are built-in injustices in society that are not due to some inherent evil lurking in the hearts of wealthy white men. By the same token, people who are poor or lack certain privileges are not stupid, bad, or inherently lesser humans because they do not possess the same knowledge and skill set as someone who has/had more advantages growing up.

Re: If you were hacking since age 8, it means you were privileged

#69

Post by dgabriel »

dgordon wrote: post #63
dgabriel wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please don't miss the point: you had the opportunity, as did many of your middle class peers, to discover your aptitude for computers at an early age. This is not an opportunity afforded to children in low income homes. You are not required to apologize for this. Please don't. Just recognize it for what it is, and be grateful you had an early chance to discover something you love. My 8 year-old and I are starting a s…

I agree that "recognize it for what it is and be grateful for it" is the right reaction to having had an opportunity that a lot of people didn't have, but it's much different from the attitude of this and similar articles. Good luck with that project -- if you find even one kid like that or anywhere close, you'll have done a lot of good.

The tone can be off-putting, but it comes from being treated like dirt by snotty kids who think that their good fortune == inherent superiority.

Re: If you were hacking since age 8, it means you were privileged

#70

Post by Tichy »

ryanricard wrote: post #55

One beef with the article, one with the tone of many of the upvoted replies: As for the article, I'd argue that the strict ability to afford a computer matters much less than the understanding of why a computer is useful, how to get the most out of it, and even that it can be programmed by kids. Possessing the knowledge that computers can be programmed by kids to do fun and useful things is, I'd argue, correlated wit…

I must admit I wasn't programming anything useful as a kid. I was more into graphical effects and games.
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