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Facebook denies 'listening' to conversations

bbc.com

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Re: Facebook denies 'listening' to conversations

#41

Post by Kelbit »

eru wrote: post #37
jlgaddis wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. Really, I don't see why Facebook wouldn't monitor audio like this for targeting ads. If you make money from serving ads, that seems like exactly the kind of thing you would want to do. Like you, I have gotten pretty good at noticing "weasel words" and such in the government's statements (denials). It is clear that they take their time to make sure they word their statements ever so carefully.

> Really, I don't see why Facebook wouldn't monitor audio like this for targeting ads. Horrible battery life?

Anecdotally, Facebook battery performance is pretty poor, it's always the app that drains my battery the fastest. I don't think they care about power consumption.

Re: Facebook denies 'listening' to conversations

#42

Post by dlubarov »

api wrote: post #9

Wouldn't it be possible to detect this? If this is happening then it must require some amount of CPU and memory use on the device, which even if hidden from the OS can be detected via power use and heat dissipation. It should be possible to indirectly measure a phone's CPU load (including any hidden processors) by filming it in the infrared and/or by attaching it to power and measuring the wattage consumed from the s…

Wouldn't it be easier to reverse engineer their app? It seems easy enough, at least one the Android side. You could use something like baksmali to convert all the dex code to smali, then grep that for calls to AudioRecord/MediaRecorder and figure out what triggers that code.

That's why I'm skeptical that Facebook would do this -- it seems like a terrible business decision given the high chance of getting caught, either by reverse engineering or a whistleblower.

Re: Facebook denies 'listening' to conversations

#44

Post by throwaway613834 »

Feniks wrote: post #38

I know that smart TVs and the now defunct Kinect have the ability to monitor conversations. Hell I remember when I first used Soundhound! I was flabbergasted, what will they think of next. But I also know corporations are usually scrupulous about following laws so unless there is something in Facebook's ToS/EULA that mentions doing this I'm skeptical.

> so unless there is something in Facebook's ToS/EULA that mentions doing this I'm skeptical

I don't see why the vague terms in their data policy [1] couldn't include audio (all-caps are my own emphases):

> We collect information FROM or about the computers, PHONES, or other devices where you install or access our Services, depending on the permissions you’ve granted. [...] Here are some EXAMPLES of the information we collect:

> - Device locations, including specific geographic locations, such as through GPS, Bluetooth, or WiFi signals.

If device location is merely an example of information they gather from my phone then why couldn't audio just as easily be another example?

[1] https://www.facebook.com/full_data_use_policy

Re: Facebook denies 'listening' to conversations

#45

Post by twelve40 »

jlgaddis wrote: post #26
sp527 wrote: post #15

Once happened while remarking on the Fruit Loops shake at Burger King. Opened Facebook minutes later and got a Fruit Loops ad. I assure you I don’t message, post, or in any other way remotely suggest an affinity for Fruit Loops. Commenting on it at Burger King was the definition of a one-off incident. I guess another possible explanation is some very sophisticated combination of location tracking and Kellogg’s target…

I was once sitting at a bar having a beer, chatting with the bartender (one of my best friends) and the guy sitting next to me, whom I had never met before. I pulled out my phone to show my friend something that had been posted on Facebook and, while browsing Facebook right after that, the app showed the guy sitting right next to me as the first person under "People You May Know". I had not "checked in" or posted any…

It's becoming harder to avoid their apps now that people I need to stay in touch with are on the inevitable Whatsapp that needs voice+other permissions, plus whatever other apps they bring into our lives next. I think it's kinda hopeless.

Re: Facebook denies 'listening' to conversations

#46

Post by throwaway613834 »

nilved wrote: post #43

There's an easy way to verify this: run tcpdump and record it happening. The fact that nobody has done this, instead only offering anecdotes, strongly suggests that these are coincidences or from other forms of targeting.

tcpdump? How do you record HTTPS connections (with pinned certificates, I might add) via tcpdump?

Re: Facebook denies 'listening' to conversations

#47

Post by amelius »

sp527 wrote: post #15

Once happened while remarking on the Fruit Loops shake at Burger King. Opened Facebook minutes later and got a Fruit Loops ad. I assure you I don’t message, post, or in any other way remotely suggest an affinity for Fruit Loops. Commenting on it at Burger King was the definition of a one-off incident. I guess another possible explanation is some very sophisticated combination of location tracking and Kellogg’s target…

Perhaps the friend you were talking to about the Fruit Loops shake did a search on Facebook on their smartphone?

Anyway, I want a LED on my camera and microphone. And a hardware switch.

Re: Facebook denies 'listening' to conversations

#48

Post by placeybordeaux »

api wrote: post #11
misnome wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Coincidence is a less sinister explanation. You never take note of the adverts if they weren’t immediately relevant.

This seems like something that could be settled via some kind of study, like playing audio to the phone and recording what ads get shown and doing it to a population of phones and social media accounts.

You can also monitor the network traffic, audio takes up a decent chunk of data.

You can decompile the app and see what it does.

Re: Facebook denies 'listening' to conversations

#49

Post by zipwitch »

sp527 wrote: post #15

Once happened while remarking on the Fruit Loops shake at Burger King. Opened Facebook minutes later and got a Fruit Loops ad. I assure you I don’t message, post, or in any other way remotely suggest an affinity for Fruit Loops. Commenting on it at Burger King was the definition of a one-off incident. I guess another possible explanation is some very sophisticated combination of location tracking and Kellogg’s target…

Yep. My immediate read of the denial was, "the legal entity that is Facebook does not itself spy on users in this exact manner".

Once they have a business model that does not revolve around selling data about their users to their customers, claiming they don't spy can be something other than a bad punchline.

Re: Facebook denies 'listening' to conversations

#50

Post by j_s »

Technicalities and choice of words are amazing ways to deny what isn't exactly happening here.

For example, why use the word 'recording' when the problem is accessing the microphone at all... Facebook doesn't have to 'record' to stream the audio to their server for audio recognition without 'recording' anything.

Of course all of this is just from the title of the article but the paranoid will pretty much always be able to find wiggle room.

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