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Orchid: a new surveillance-free layer on top of the existing Internet

orchidprotocol.com

81–90 of 196 posts

Re: Orchid: a new surveillance-free layer on top of the existing Internet

#81

It's Tor but with a worse website and more decentralised? I think the website could be better if it said right at the top what it actually does and what it offers over competing services.

Hey man, Tor has been up for over a decade, but this isn't even in beta.

Re: Orchid: a new surveillance-free layer on top of the existing Internet

#82
post #5

Hello! My name is Jay Freeman (saurik), and I was both deeply involved in the design of Orchid's protocol as well as in charge of the initial implementation of the networking and routing logic, and am happy to try to answer any questions people might have about what we are working on! (edit:) g_simonsson, who now has an account on Hacker News and has joined this thread, is Gustav Simonsson, another developer working…

I've seen your name somewhere before..

Your Wikipedia page shows that you have something to do with Cydia, which is unlikely for me to remember but I guess that's it.

Re: Orchid: a new surveillance-free layer on top of the existing Internet

#83
post #40

As soon as I see "Ethereum" I stop reading.

Call me zealous, but I'm the same way. I'm wary of the potential for monetary incentives to skew actual demand. I've seen how digital advertising has more or less destroyed much of the internet. Hopefully decentralization will prevent monopolies or oligopolies from forming, but I'm not so sure about that.

At this point, it's hard to say what actual distributions of wealth might look like if people start using cryptocurrencies in their daily lives, for example to route traffic over a network. But at the moment, the distributions of wealth are quite nuts. But if there is an overall "unfair" atmosphere in the crypto-economy, it's could make depending on this system of routing kinda suck in the long term, especially if peoples actual livelihoods are under the pressure of massive ad gaps. People "sell out" when they're perceiving some stress.

If we go 'all-in' on this kind of system, it might actually end up creating the same kinds of de-facto power imbalances we see today with conventional social media.

I'm not anti-cryptocurrency either. I actually own a little bit of cryptocurrency. I'm curious about its potential to dissolve existing dominance relationships non-violently. That said, I don't see it as an end. Moreso, I see it as a potential conduit of healthy, non-violent economic chaos.

I also recognize that this strange new alien could be "out of the frying pan and into the fire".

Re: Orchid: a new surveillance-free layer on top of the existing Internet

#84
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The whitepaper is way over my head How about a more specific question. If someone uses Orchid to accesse a website, can the website identify their IP address?

The website will see the IP address of the exit node connecting to it, not the IP address of the user connecting to the network. You can then ask the question "what if the people running the website are also running nodes on this network and are actively attempting to do various forms of information correlation attacks including active experiments on the traffic flow", then I really am going to have a hard time accur…

Thank you for your answer.

Re: Orchid: a new surveillance-free layer on top of the existing Internet

#85
post #73
post #68

Is there any thought given to the response to a node operator who is detected/proven to be operating the node for surveillance or compromise? What would the response be? Will tokens not be sold to such a node operator?

The goal of our network is to make it so that the network is protected as much as possible from users running compromised nodes. If you are a single node, you should not be able to do anything against the network. As the number of nodes you are in the system increases, the probability you will be able to pull of various forms of attacks against users of the network also increases. We are working on documenting these…

"We are working on documenting these security tradeoffs in detail in our whitepaper (and any attempt I make to describe them here will be less accurate and thereby dangerous ;P)."

Maybe a whitelist of nodes themselves? (mostly in jest there)

I suppose an agency with funding who can endlessly sockpuppet could gain a substantial portion of network nodes, but if they're unable to censor more than per-random-packet, a surveillance goal seems more likely. While this may not meet conventional definition of 'censorship', I wonder of the chilling effect. I suppose any such move toward a censorship-free network should expect surveillance. c'est la vie.

Thank you for taking time to answer my question.

Re: Orchid: a new surveillance-free layer on top of the existing Internet

#86
post #5

Hello! My name is Jay Freeman (saurik), and I was both deeply involved in the design of Orchid's protocol as well as in charge of the initial implementation of the networking and routing logic, and am happy to try to answer any questions people might have about what we are working on! (edit:) g_simonsson, who now has an account on Hacker News and has joined this thread, is Gustav Simonsson, another developer working…

I've seen your name somewhere before.. Your Wikipedia page shows that you have something to do with Cydia, which is unlikely for me to remember but I guess that's it.

FWIW, my name was pretty prominently in Cydia, so if you ever used it, you saw it a lot ;P.

Re: Orchid: a new surveillance-free layer on top of the existing Internet

#87
post #40

As soon as I see "Ethereum" I stop reading.

Call me zealous, but I'm the same way. I'm wary of the potential for monetary incentives to skew actual demand. I've seen how digital advertising has more or less destroyed much of the internet. Hopefully decentralization will prevent monopolies or oligopolies from forming, but I'm not so sure about that. At this point, it's hard to say what actual distributions of wealth might look like if people start using cryptoc…

I read your comment and I picture a sort of information balkanization via endless whack-a-mole of privacy tech and organizational surveillance.

It may just be how it will ever be.

Re: Orchid: a new surveillance-free layer on top of the existing Internet

#88
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given your question's wording the answer is, at this time and as currently described, "a way of accessing the clearnet", with no already-existing features for hidden services.

That sounds like you are thinking of maybe adding hidden services in the future, am I reading you correctly?

There is active discussion of this, which means I am not prepared to say it won't happen or that it can't happen, but I am also not prepared to guarantee it will happen (as then you will ask when ;P).

Re: Orchid: a new surveillance-free layer on top of the existing Internet

#89
post #80

I understand the plan is to be open source, but can someone help me understand why it's not developed in the open? I mean, you can tell people you're not accepting external input at this stage, but why not let people watch it being developed? I can't think of any reason that doesn't make me think that the goal may be openness/transparency but not the practice. Or did I miss the link to the repo?

This is an interesting question; one which I feel for greatly, and one which we have been discussing internally. Not having this detail worked out before going public was probably a mistake of ours, particularly as now we keep getting distracted, but we are rapidly working on addressing the issue as quickly as possible. I am going to give you an answer to this but want to stress that this answer has not been vetted t…

Thank you very much for the response. I empathize with the noise-vs-signal concerns with premature public feedback. Just wanted to share my thoughts because the first thing I look for in these cases is code. While y'all's credentials are clear, we've just seen so much snake oil in the decentralized tech industry.

Re: Orchid: a new surveillance-free layer on top of the existing Internet

#90
> This would be a disruptive inconvienance [sic] for Chinese business people, deeply effecting [sic] commerce, as well as quality of life for the average Chinese citizen.

This sentence has two typos. It should be changed to:

> This would be a disruptive inconvenience for Chinese business people, deeply affecting commerce, as well as quality of life for the average Chinese citizen.

But TBH, stating that the lack of WebRTC or VPS web hosting would, "deeply affect the quality of life for the average Chinese citizen," seems like hyperbole. Maybe:

> This would be a disruptive inconvenience for Chinese business people, deeply affecting commerce and web access for millions of Chinese citizens.

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