Earlier quoted context omitted.
> While users who run nodes can choose to forward content to anywhere on the Internet, we want to provide people a feeling of control ... Are you concerned that, 1. If node operators have the power to control content, they will be held responsible for the content by authorities? For example, consider a node operator in mainland China who allows access to criticism of President Xi. 2. Unpopular content will be censore…
As these are more answers of opinion rather than factual questions about the network, I'm going to add a massive disclaimer here that "opinions may differ about what is or is not concerning". 1) No, because I would personally advise people in China do not whitelist sites whose purpose is to access such content. It is not even clear to me that people in China would want to run an exit node at all. There are billions o…
Orchid: a new surveillance-free layer on top of the existing Internet
51–60 of 196 posts
Re: Orchid: a new surveillance-free layer on top of the existing Internet
#52Hello! My name is Jay Freeman (saurik), and I was both deeply involved in the design of Orchid's protocol as well as in charge of the initial implementation of the networking and routing logic, and am happy to try to answer any questions people might have about what we are working on! (edit:) g_simonsson, who now has an account on Hacker News and has joined this thread, is Gustav Simonsson, another developer working…
1. The web page says open source repeatedly. Where's the code repo? 2. What's your privacy policy? What do you log, and what could you log (but swear you aren't)? 3. What's the open source license? 4. What's your code rights assignment document? 5. Does this differ from "Tor, but supported with a cryptocoin to buy exit bandwidth instead of hoping for donations" 6. That's a lot of investors. How long do you expect to…
2) The network is not a centralized service. Assuming I understand your question (and I probably do not), one may as well ask where the privacy policy is for Bitcoin. When the network launches, there will be nodes run by us, and one could believe they are logging in a way that is different from other nodes. This is something that we are sensitive to, and, if there are any such modifications (and it is not clear that there will be), they will all be available and visible to the public (as even required by our choice of open source license!). Of course, I can make no such claim for nodes run by other people or companies, but that is always the case and we fall back to the underlying security properties of the network.
3) AGPL3
4) This is still being worked on, partially because I think it is incredibly important that we make it extremely clear to anyone who does give us copyright assignment that the code they give us won't one day be forked by some future version of the entity that owns the code to build a closed-source project, and getting that right in a way that it can't ever be changed is legal time we haven't finished allocating.
5) Yes! As one high-level and in my mind very interesting example, Tor actually is a centralized service where nine directory servers are able to decide the state of the network; we are accepting nothing less than a fully-decentralized system.
6) I do not have a particularly precise answer to that question, but the answer I believe in is "not long at all", particularly given that users pay for the bandwidth they are using from other people. Under one argument, we would be self-sufficient instantaneously because any bandwidth being routed through a server we set up to help bootstrap the network would be paid for by a user.
7&8) This is a question that would lead to a very detailed answer, and so I hope I can refer you to our in-progress whitepaper. If you have any further questions, I would be happy to try to get them answered ;P.
9) It is my personal opinion that, as bandwidth is a "wasting good", that it will be extremely cheap to purchase bandwidth. I will refer you to section 7.2 of the whitepaper, "How Much Will a Packet Cost?".
Re: Orchid: a new surveillance-free layer on top of the existing Internet
#53Hello! My name is Jay Freeman (saurik), and I was both deeply involved in the design of Orchid's protocol as well as in charge of the initial implementation of the networking and routing logic, and am happy to try to answer any questions people might have about what we are working on! (edit:) g_simonsson, who now has an account on Hacker News and has joined this thread, is Gustav Simonsson, another developer working…
1. Based on the paper, it seems ORCHID by itself (without bandwidth burning. not sure if this is trivial to get right. is there tooling?) is as vulnerable to traffic correlation attacks as one might expect. Are there any other known weaknesses? I would expect a "limitations" section in red letters on the front page, instead of the nebulous and likely wrong "the NSA can't hack it either" claim. 2. Given that todays se…
That said, you are absolutely correct, and my colleague and long-time friend David Salamon (the person who has been the lead author of the whitepaper) wants that to be very clear. We are implementing bandwidth burning (and are even discussing some interesting extensions of this scheme involving both Turing-complete-w/-limited-execution-time programmable bandwidth burning as well as a form of global bandwidth burning), so whether you call that a "known weakness" for all of Orchid or not is slightly confusing ;P.
When we have actual software that someone could possibly use I am going to be pretty adamant that there are good disclosures in the UI with respect to the security tradeoffs, and for right now the whitepaper goes into extreme lengths to qualify what is or is not possible, in our current understanding, with and without bandwidth burning in place. (We are also looking into taking aspects of the algorithm and building it out with a proof assistant to have even greater assurances.)
2) One place where Orchid will hopefully shine (in the future tense, as this part is decidedly not yet implemented) is that we are working to allow multiple routes to/from the destination exit node using a scheme similar to MPTCP, which solves a lot of the bottleneck issues you normally find running through an overlay network.
Re: Orchid: a new surveillance-free layer on top of the existing Internet
#54buzzwords I see. what does it do?
Financial incentive for running relays.
Re: Orchid: a new surveillance-free layer on top of the existing Internet
#55Re: Orchid: a new surveillance-free layer on top of the existing Internet
#56Earlier quoted context omitted.
For that purpose I would think optional whitelisting would make more sense. Instead of spyware lists you subscribe to in uBlock Origin, you would subscribe to a vetted, whitelist of known to be generally acceptable Orchid content. Others might want to have empty filter list to be a complete transit/peer. Therefore I don't think there's much room for users who want to blacklist but are not rather looking for a whiteli…
If you're only using a "stable whitelist" of websites on the internet then you're not the target audience
When I say whitelist, I do assume prefixes in the DHT (or whatever design they're using) can be used, as otherwise the whitelist may also grow too big to be practical. If however it will gain the concept of domains or such (which is also kinda a prefix), a whitelist will also be more practical.
Tor exit nodes are not operated by many in various places where they would/could because of concerns of the exit node addresses being enough to legally ruin operators' lives, even though technically it's a pure transit. Nobody sues the county because someone committed vehicular manslaughter on their public road. But because laws are skewed against the Internet right now, all someone needs is an exit node IP to make you regret.
If, and there's little to analyze/go by right now public, nodes and everyone is totally oblivious to what packets are transmitted; and if also the packets stored on nodes' disks are encrypted/sealed, then one could assume a filterless system to be practical.
This is all speculation, based on the little info there is. I really hope the team has come up with better designs that obliviate the concerns surrounding Tor, and ideally also not suffer from Freenet like slowness.
EDIT: Of course, once you have a filter, you will need to deal with the responsibility like Youtube does. If you do not know what's on disk or passing through, which is the ideal technically, then it would be best for the Internet and free communication. So, I'm not sure if a filter is a good idea, if that means you get subpoena'd and held liable for enabling one too many whitelist subscriptions.
Re: Orchid: a new surveillance-free layer on top of the existing Internet
#57Hello! My name is Jay Freeman (saurik), and I was both deeply involved in the design of Orchid's protocol as well as in charge of the initial implementation of the networking and routing logic, and am happy to try to answer any questions people might have about what we are working on! (edit:) g_simonsson, who now has an account on Hacker News and has joined this thread, is Gustav Simonsson, another developer working…
1. Based on the paper, it seems ORCHID by itself (without bandwidth burning. not sure if this is trivial to get right. is there tooling?) is as vulnerable to traffic correlation attacks as one might expect. Are there any other known weaknesses? I would expect a "limitations" section in red letters on the front page, instead of the nebulous and likely wrong "the NSA can't hack it either" claim. 2. Given that todays se…
In general some of the hardest problems / known weaknesses of the protocol at this stage is:
* Client bootstrap - what entry nodes to connect to? (saurik answered this in response to other questions)
* Current software connects to Ethereum nodes using an Ethereum light client, as Ethereum network traffic is not hardened it can easily be fingerprinted and blocked by GFW and others.
* Difficulty of medallion Proof-of-Work, basically it boils down to that if it's easy to join the network as a relay or exit node, then it's easy for a large attacker to join with many nodes. Making it harder for attackers to join / maintain active position in the network also makes it harder / more expensive for regular nodes.
* Payment anonymity. Currently it's as pseudo-anonymous as regular Ethereum transactions. Whitepaper has some discussion on future improvements there.
(2) The main driver here is economics - relay and exit nodes are paid by users for their bandwidth and relay of traffic. This forms an emergent, decentralized market that hopefully will find an equilibrium where there is plenty of overlay/secure bandwidth available at what the market prices it.
So far our models and simulations on this are limited, so we cannot make strong statements on how this will scale in practice. However, if we look at Bitcoin/Ethereum transaction (miner) fees, we see a live example of a working decentralized market that is very responsive and adjusts to supply/demand without any central intervention/control.
Re: Orchid: a new surveillance-free layer on top of the existing Internet
#58Earlier quoted context omitted.
Ugh. FWIW: we agree. That FAQ answer was rewritten, and it failed to go on the website. Here is the updated text that was written a couple nights ago by one of the people who helped design the protocol with me after being confused by the answer on the website. > Yes. Our initial release targets China as the adversary, which is a more tractable problem. We may implment full Chaumian mixes in the future (which are immu…
Would you consider changing "China" to something like "Chinese government"? Or, if I'm understanding it correctly, maybe something like "Our initial release operates with a threat model of an authoritarian government's internet censorship, such as those seen in China, Turkey, or Russia."
Re: Orchid: a new surveillance-free layer on top of the existing Internet
#59Re: Orchid: a new surveillance-free layer on top of the existing Internet
#60Earlier quoted context omitted.
(edit: When I wrote this answer, the person I was responding to had not yet added "or Tor".) Freenet builds its own domain of content where people post websites that are hosted in a distributed fashion by the platform. What we are working on with this initial implementation is a fully-decentralized tunneling service to access existing content posted on the internet (so if you were to compare it to an existing technol…
Is this a darknet or a way of accessing the clearnet or both?