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Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#761

Post by kristiandupont »

Grustaf wrote: post #756
kristiandupont wrote: post #745

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Leaving Spain (and thus, the EU) is going to have severe consequences financially and in other ways (families that have someone working in another EU country who would suddenly not be a Schengen member etc.). Yes, the UK followed this democratic way and voted themselves out of the EU and you could argue that Catalonia should be able to do the same but as with Brexit, it would mean that close to half of the population…

Is there any indication they’d like to leave the EU as well? Aren’t they very pro EU?

They are. And some argue that they would be allowed to stay but the European Commission stated that they would not (http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_STATEMENT-17-3626_en.ht...) and I don't think it's very likely that they would be able to. At best, it's a pretty reckless bet to make.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#762

Post by dmichulke »

justinclift wrote: post #674
dmichulke wrote: post #527

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Politicians are not focused on crushing poverty, judges are not working to end corruption, police is not busy catching terrorists. Smaller states have fewer levels of hierarchy and are usually more efficient at what they're doing and less corrupt. Also, people have it easier to exert pressure on their representatives, be it by throwing stones in their windows, not serving the prime minister at the local bakery or j…

As an observation, a fairly standard predator/military/combat tactic is to separate your prey/target from its protective group. eg isolate it so it's easier to overcome Catalonia doesn't seem to be directly bordered (by land) to any hostile countries though, so that's probably not a worry.

I think in fact there is always a synergy effect to centralization and an efficiency effect to decentralization.

The synergy is quite obvious and explains why big companies and nations are able to survive in spite of the lack of efficiency.

The efficiency probably stems from a smaller (communication) distance between organization members.

The efficiency effect is IMO less well-known hence the comment but you're totally right. From that perspective the above-mentioned tactic amounts to a removal of synergy. If you look at it locally (and this point doesn't really apply to armies and companies but to, e.g., herds of animals), you also cut off the communication to the other herd members so it's a win-win from the predator side.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#763

Post by dang »

marcosscriven wrote: post #561
marcosscriven wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see I have been down voted. As someone born in Barcelona, with dual Spanish/British nationality, all I can say with certainty is that I’m deeply saddened to lose not one, but possibly now two connections to my European neighbours.

Crazy. Even just expressing my own feelings on the matter is worthy of someone down voting. So very peculiar. Someone doesn’t agree I am deeply saddened?!

These comments are breaking the site guidelines. Would you please read them and follow them when commenting here?

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#764

Post by ryuker16 »

TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #749
ryuker16 wrote: post #499

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But most of those small arms suck. In Vietnam and Afghanistan they had weapons being sent to them including stuff like artillery and mortars. A bunch of militia with store bought guns(many pistols or hunting rifles) doesn't really compare to guys supplied with full automatics and RPGs.

It takes very little for normal people to produce explosives and IEDs.

IEDs are cute compared to artillery or anti-aircraft.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#765

Post by justinclift »

dmichulke wrote: post #762
justinclift wrote: post #674

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an observation, a fairly standard predator/military/combat tactic is to separate your prey/target from its protective group. eg isolate it so it's easier to overcome Catalonia doesn't seem to be directly bordered (by land) to any hostile countries though, so that's probably not a worry.

I think in fact there is always a synergy effect to centralization and an efficiency effect to decentralization. The synergy is quite obvious and explains why big companies and nations are able to survive in spite of the lack of efficiency. The efficiency probably stems from a smaller (communication) distance between organization members. The efficiency effect is IMO less well-known hence the comment but you're total…

Well put. Was thinking over this in a similar way earlier today, but didn't have a word for the strength-in-numbers effect. "Synergy" is a decent word for it. :)

With the bit about it not really applying to armies... not sure why it wouldn't. If you cut the communication lines/avenues between units in an army, they'd generally be less effective at co-ordinating (less synergy). eg less able to mount effective defensive or attacks.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#766

Post by CaptSpify »

mpermar wrote: post #742
CaptSpify wrote: post #597

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not? If the majority doesn't want to make their opinion known, that's fine, but I don't see how they can blame others for continuing on despite their silence.

Because then every minority can vote whatever they want. A few of your neighbours can vote to kick your family out of your house. A few rival supporters can vote to kick your team out of your favourite league. Some students can vote to kick your kids out of college because they do not like them. If we let anyone to invent polls and votes that affect the majority of people then nonsense happens.

> Because then every minority can vote whatever they want.

I don't see why that would be a problem. In fact, we already do that all the time. Look at the voting turnout for a large number of elections. Are you seriously suggesting that >50% of voters have to vote on something (that they may or may not be properly informed about) to make it legitimate?

I generally don't vote on my local school and education laws, because I don't have kids, and don't follow that system enough to be properly informed. My city has a low percentage of parents, so I'm assuming that a lot of other people don't either. If the choice is between everyone voting on stuff that they don't understand, or only those who care enough vote, I'll take the later every time.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#767

Post by ben_w »

tomjen3 wrote: post #569
ben_w wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect the only reason the US government lets Americans think the second amendment would enable the population to forcibly remove an undesirable government, is because the weapons and strategic/tactical/leadership skills of the population are vastly out-classed by the armed forces. What good is a semi-automatic against a supersonic jet that just fired an air-to-ground missile in your direction? Plenty of AK-47s in…

Those weapons only win if you don't care about civilian losses (that is one way to win a counter insurgency, see Mandatory Palestine) - but by not caring about civilian casualties I mean you have to be willing to commit genocide (again, see the British actions in Mandatory Palestine). If you do care about civilians (and I assume the US armed forces would be forced to care) a jet is probably not worth much against an…

Who is a civilian in a civil war in a nation which has a constitutional right to bear arms?

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#768

Post by fasteo »

gonvaled wrote: post #708
fasteo wrote: post #598

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>> Because they feel they have a mandate? This is basically what they say, but this only appeal the people's emotions, making them appear as altruist servants of the Catalonian people. Sorry, I am too old to believe in fairytales. No offense.

Don"t follow you. Are you are too old to believe in the fairy tale of honestly implementing your campaign promises, so you prefer the proven method of lying to the ellectorate? What honest politicians you old realists aspire to: those in the respectable business of doing whatever they want to, completely disregarding any promises made? I bet you also welcome corruption since, you know, how would anyone believe in, or…

>>> I bet you also welcome corruption

Don't be a jerk. You seem to be a clever person. This is not what I meant. And you know it.

My position in quite simple. I do not believe in politician's altruism. They are all going to prison and I do no think they are doing it for the Calalonian people. That's all. Time will tell.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#769

Post by alvatar »

MatthewWilkes wrote: post #215
alvatar wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, what is the repression of the Kingdom of Spain exactly? Not allowing the referendum? It was ruled illegal by the high courts. Catalonia should push for a change of that, but not blame the government for applying the Constitution.

Yes, not allowing the referendum. It was ruled illegal because the Spanish constitution does not allow secession, effectively preventing self-determination for Catalonia. Denying people a right that's commonly understood to be fundamental to international law and then using violence to enforce it is repression in my book. Spain has consistently escalated tensions rather than offering a path to a real democratic decis…

You are probably reading biased media. Spain has not consistently escalated tensions, it's been done by both sides. I disagree that something like this is commonly understood as fundamental. Referendums need to meet some conditions and be agreed. Disagreement happened in both sides, it wasn't an authoritarian decision in spite of what some international media seem to enjoy saying. What is illegal in the referendum is: - it asks something that is not allowed to happen by the constitution (thus the need to change it first) - there is no clear definition of who is allowed to vote (who is Catalan by which definition) - the right to vote on the ownership of that land belongs to all Spanish just like any other region belongs to those voting there. - What's the level at which we do the referendum? Not all areas might want to leave in the case of a hypothetical "yes" (which is not a majority at the moment by any poll). What if certain areas want independence from Catalonia?

Most importantly: the referendum is illegal even by the autonomic law of Catalonia. They should have had 2/3 of the chamber to push it, and they did it with less than half (48% IRCC).

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#770

Post by sametmax »

icebraining wrote: post #285
sametmax wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As usual people are missing part of the story. Both side screw up. BOTH. E.G: there is a strong racism culture among Catalonia independentists, even against other Spaniards. They even invented part of their cultural heritage to sound more credible (look up their "ancestral cultural dance" origin, it is kinda funny). If you want your independence, not alianating the rest of your neighbors for decades can be a good sta…

I'm not saying it's a good thing, but is there any reason at all to believe that the rest of Spain would have allowed the referendum if only Catalonia had been very nice to everyone else? Seems like an excuse to me.

That's assuming a side already.

Again, nobody is right here. They bkth screw up in many ways.

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