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Professors can’t stay silent about this extremist moment on campuses

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Re: Professors can’t stay silent about this extremist moment on campuses

#31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a variant of Chesterton's fence: question an authority when you've learned how that authority works and what motivates it. For god's sake, if you want to be a contrarian, be intelligent about it. Some freshman with a copy of Derrida and a bullshit social justice grievance does not know enough to question 4,000 years of civilization.

Do you? Anyone can question anything. That's how a free and fair society works. The professor has a lot of detailed knowledge on the topics they cover, but maybe not a radical critique of the underlying assumptions of what they teach. I'm not super familiar with this case, but glancing over the student's demands, many looked reasonable.

Of course we have a right to question anything. But pragmatism demands that we don't spend an arbitrarily large amount of time indulging arbitrarily unlikely scenarios. These protesters are attempting to use brute force to give their horrible ideas more salience than they'd get in a fair intellectual forum, and that's not fair to people who actually want to learn about the far more well-established ideas that we've honed over thousands of years.

Re: Professors can’t stay silent about this extremist moment on campuses

#32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Students shouldn’t have any say in shaping institutions they attend to gain knowledge. They are not smarter than their professors. Or if they disagree, they should attend another university and vite with their wallet/loan/whatever.

This post is poisonous to knowledge. I've politely corrected professors who I respect on multiple occasions. Just because you are informed about a particular subject does not mean that you are never wrong about that subject. I've noticed that STEM professors tend to be more willing to accept that they are wrong about something than in the humanities which I suspect is because it is much easier to prove that someone i…

I think students should definitely be able to offer polite feedback to their professors, like you describe. However, students definitely shouldn't be in a position to dictate the curriculum, which I think is more what the grandparent was talking about.

Re: Professors can’t stay silent about this extremist moment on campuses

#33
post #5

I worry about an increasing movement toward radicalization on all ends of the political spectrum. I think Trump represented a shift to the far -right. Now I worry liberals might shift to the far -left. The middle ground seems to be disappearing

> Now I worry liberals might shift to the far-left

Yet Trump's election was in part about a reaction to far left movement from the viewpoint of supporters. You may not agree, but the reality is that real or not the perception is what drives outcomes.

The left no longer are strong supporters of free speech, no longer oppose imperialism and foreign interventions and are just as hawkish as the right only the rhetoric differs. The greatest irony here is that some portion of Trump's supporters did oppose these things when he was candidate Trump. Just as many of Obama's supporters opposed the wars, domestic spying while he was candidate, but not afterward.

Our greatest loss of liberty always comes from whoever wins no matter who they are or their side due to the team sport aspect of politics where most will no longer rationally criticize their own team once they are in power.

Re: Professors can’t stay silent about this extremist moment on campuses

#34

The author is referring to students protesting the mandatory freshman lecture on Western Civilization, which has a history of being protested at Reed. There's a list of demands as well. http://reediesagainstracism.tumblr.com/demands Students typically have an incredibly small say in shaping the institutions that shape their future. If protesting wasn't uncomfortable, it wouldn't be effective.

Students shouldn’t have any say in shaping institutions they attend to gain knowledge. They are not smarter than their professors. Or if they disagree, they should attend another university and vite with their wallet/loan/whatever.

Taken to that extreme, the only way to resolve issues with an university that "the university" (which seldom is a blob with one opinion) doesn't recognize itself would be by economic destruction of said university. That's horrendously inefficient when you have tools of diplomacy available. (Similar to how we do not resolve issues with governments by revolution, unless absolutely necessary)

Also, there are clear legal limits to that approach.

Re: Professors can’t stay silent about this extremist moment on campuses

#35

The author is referring to students protesting the mandatory freshman lecture on Western Civilization, which has a history of being protested at Reed. There's a list of demands as well. http://reediesagainstracism.tumblr.com/demands Students typically have an incredibly small say in shaping the institutions that shape their future. If protesting wasn't uncomfortable, it wouldn't be effective.

None of the demands seem to have much to do with the teaching of this particular course. It is also the case that the professors have very little control over meeting these demands. Finally, presumably there are some people who want to take that class. This is like yelling at the Starbucks barista because you don't like the flavors they're using in the cake, even though other customers want that flavor. My sympathy i…

> None of the demands seem to have much to do with the teaching of this particular course

Demand #13 is specifically about that course.

Re: Professors can’t stay silent about this extremist moment on campuses

#36

I notice this submission is now flagged. Anybody has any idea as to why or in which way is inappropriate?

Likely because discussions on this topic generally generate much more heat than light. That's not to say the issue isn't important or worth discussing; some forums (virtual and otherwise) are better suited for constructive discussions on a given topic than others. HN members often flag such submissions even when they agree with the premise for just this reason.

To be clear, as I understand it, submissions receive a "[flagged]" tag when enough community members have flagged it: it's not a moderator action.

Re: Professors can’t stay silent about this extremist moment on campuses

#37
post #6

>We introduced ourselves and took our seats. But as we were about to begin, the protesters seized our microphones, stood in front of us and shut down the lecture. I'm not sure who gave these people the idea the heckler's veto is a legitimate tactic on a college campus or why the administration puts up with it. Those students should be summarily expelled.

This is not how we did things in the 90s we used to debate these speakers and knock down their ideas with rational discourse it's not that hard to deflate the arguments of the far right they're mostly based on a series of bad assumptions like assuming everyone has a deep fear of anyone who looks different than them. It's better to let them speak and then deflate their arguments to the bone in debate.

Re: Professors can’t stay silent about this extremist moment on campuses

#38
post #37
post #6

>We introduced ourselves and took our seats. But as we were about to begin, the protesters seized our microphones, stood in front of us and shut down the lecture. I'm not sure who gave these people the idea the heckler's veto is a legitimate tactic on a college campus or why the administration puts up with it. Those students should be summarily expelled.

This is not how we did things in the 90s we used to debate these speakers and knock down their ideas with rational discourse it's not that hard to deflate the arguments of the far right they're mostly based on a series of bad assumptions like assuming everyone has a deep fear of anyone who looks different than them. It's better to let them speak and then deflate their arguments to the bone in debate.

However when it comes to speakers advocating racism, race is not even real, there is only one human race with ethnic variations we don't allow people to come to medical schools to advocate using voodoo doll to cure cancer why should racists be speaking on college campuses?

Re: Professors can’t stay silent about this extremist moment on campuses

#39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So I think its more a personality type selection than actual thought process or belief. Yep, I think that's an important insight. I know a few people who grew up in very evangelical/conservative Christian communities who later dropped that ideology for left-wing ones (e.g. feminism). Their attitudes and behaviors are almost exactly the same , except that the content of their ideas has been swapped out.

Why the downvotes? Seems like a relevant anecdote.

because the idea that women should get to work and vote isn't a far-left idea

Re: Professors can’t stay silent about this extremist moment on campuses

#40
post #13

Is this academic extremism something confined to the USA so far? I don't remember hearing about riots at European universities yet.

Is this academic extremism something confined to the USA so far? I don't remember hearing about riots at European universities yet.

It's actually fairly uncommon; most people are normal and most schools are reasonable: https://jakeseliger.com/2017/04/24/ninety-five-percent-of-pe... . But bad things are happening at a small number of schools, and, unfortunately, many administrators in particular are enabling or tolerating them, so those things make the news.

There are some genuinely bad trends, but there's also some inflation of the state of reality on the ground.

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