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If You Think Basic Income Is “Free Money” or Socialism, Think Again

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Re: If You Think Basic Income Is “Free Money” or Socialism, Think Again

#41

Post by Stefstefstef »

jasonlfunk wrote: post #37

> Everyone should get enough money to be able to refuse to work. That way, the incentive is shifted to employers, where it should be. Want someone to do something? Pay them enough to do it. This sounds nice in theory, but how doesn’t this result in price inflation? Not only are you going to be taking a portion of businesses’ profits in taxes, but now you are increasing the cost of labour. And frankly, some jobs suck…

I don't know about the US but in my country manual agricultural labor pays so much only immigrants living in hay barns can afford to do the work. for everyone else it doesn't pay enough to do the work

Re: If You Think Basic Income Is “Free Money” or Socialism, Think Again

#42

Post by Simon_says »

ChrisSD wrote: post #18
mmjaa wrote: post #9

I feel like this basic income ideology is really rooted in laziness - like, everyone likes free things, right? You don't have to work for it? But - do we ever really ask where that money is coming from? The rich just give it? So then, why would I work hard to become rich, if its just going to be taken from me? Its like income tax. Everyone loves paying tax on their income, right? (I, personally, do not.). So why don'…

Taxing spending tends to be regressive. Rich people end up paying less tax as a proportion of their income while the poor end up paying more. It is however less visible. Income tax is at least upfront about how much is taken whereas tax on spending is spread out and often invisible unless you're actively thinking about it. Sure you can make people happier about taxation by making it less visible but I'm not sure that…

I never really understood the argument that taxing spending taxes rich people a lower proportion of their income. Even allowing for investments and savings, rich and poor are all going to spend the money they have in their life (ignore or tax the estates).

If there’s a 10% sales tax, then 9.0909...% of your wealth will go to it, no matter how much you make, invest, save.

Re: If You Think Basic Income Is “Free Money” or Socialism, Think Again

#43

Post by pmorici »

Retric wrote: post #21
candiodari wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about I just point out the huge flaw here: Bank bailouts, in theory, are to be paid back, with interest. In a lot of cases they were. Not all, of course, but the economy turned. Net, bank bailouts were a good investment. QE may turn out to be as well (I may doubt that, but truth it the jury's still out) If that same deal can be made, believably, for basic income, we wouldn't be having this argument: we'd provide…

In risk adjusted terms bailouts lose money by having easier terms than private investments. Further, bailout money came from loans (bonds), and the government lost money both from the loan payment and the higher interest rate from selling more bonds. People in prison do no work yet society has plenty of surplus to cover them. The reality is minimum wage jobs are a tiny slice of the economy because they create so litt…

Lots of prisoners work and they are paid below minimum wage to subsidize there housing cost.

Re: If You Think Basic Income Is “Free Money” or Socialism, Think Again

#44

Post by Simon_says »

nkohari wrote: post #19
mmjaa wrote: post #9

I feel like this basic income ideology is really rooted in laziness - like, everyone likes free things, right? You don't have to work for it? But - do we ever really ask where that money is coming from? The rich just give it? So then, why would I work hard to become rich, if its just going to be taken from me? Its like income tax. Everyone loves paying tax on their income, right? (I, personally, do not.). So why don'…

The problem is that sales tax is an extremely regressive model. If two people buy $100 of goods, but one makes an income of $100K a year and the other $20K, the taxes are effectively 5X higher for the person making less money. No one likes paying any taxes, but at least income tax aligns the motivations of the individual with those of the government. If you make more money, you prosper, and so the government -- which…

Because the guy who makes 5 times more will spend 5 times more?

Re: If You Think Basic Income Is “Free Money” or Socialism, Think Again

#45

Post by akvadrako »

uoaei wrote: post #2

Basic income is a bottom-up stimulus package, like how bailouts for banks are "stimulus" packages but nestled in Reaganomics, i.e., expecting the money to trickle down. Except that bailouts sequester the money almost exclusively in the banking industry and so are useless for everyone except those who are already rich, and the government itself. Basic income fills the economy with money that can be really spent, and l…

I don't know why you say "free market fanboys" don't like basic income; libertarians seem to be one of the major supporting factions.

Re: If You Think Basic Income Is “Free Money” or Socialism, Think Again

#46

Post by BartSaM »

Stefstefstef wrote: post #41
jasonlfunk wrote: post #37

> Everyone should get enough money to be able to refuse to work. That way, the incentive is shifted to employers, where it should be. Want someone to do something? Pay them enough to do it. This sounds nice in theory, but how doesn’t this result in price inflation? Not only are you going to be taking a portion of businesses’ profits in taxes, but now you are increasing the cost of labour. And frankly, some jobs suck…

I don't know about the US but in my country manual agricultural labor pays so much only immigrants living in hay barns can afford to do the work. for everyone else it doesn't pay enough to do the work

Would be nice if you would mention what is your country.

Re: If You Think Basic Income Is “Free Money” or Socialism, Think Again

#47

Post by akvadrako »

Simon_says wrote: post #35
IvanK_net wrote: post #27

"First, saying basic income is socialism is as absurd as saying money is socialism. It’s money. It’s all it is. What do people do with money? They use it in markets. In other words, basic income is fuel for markets." The brilliant flow of thoughts and deduction just blew my mind.

If Basic Income isn’t socialism, I shudder to think of what the author would consider socialism.

Socialism might be central planning. Basic income is almost the opposite of central planning, because it replaces all sorts of conditional and focused welfare with what is equivalent to a negative income tax.

That's why so many libertarians are on board with the idea.

Re: If You Think Basic Income Is “Free Money” or Socialism, Think Again

#48

Post by hyperpallium »

stesch wrote: post #4

After a few years of reading UBI (Universal Basic Income) debates I come to the conclusion that it is impossible to teach humans new tricks. The way you earn and spend money is deeply ingrained into our brains. When the Neanderthal used the ATM he knew that it was his successful killing of a sabre tooth that lead to the money he had in his hands. Maybe we should just skip this immediate step and go full on Star Trek/…

Some things are already free, such as the air. We don't worry about it day-to-dzy, because we have that need met. Once a need is met, we worry about the next one. There is no end to our needs and wants. So, with basic income, it just means all those needs step up one rung.

But without basic needs met, a workforce is less productive.

It's a similar argument as for universal health care and education. If that's too contentious, consider that most civilizations provide many things to their citizens, such as roads, currency, military, law and law enforcement. that are free to the user.

Thw difference is that today, basic income can be afforded by the state.

Re: If You Think Basic Income Is “Free Money” or Socialism, Think Again

#50

Post by dingo_bat »

rjsw wrote: post #38
dingo_bat wrote: post #28

I want to write a loooong point-by-point rebuttal but I'm just too lazy. Now if I were awarded a basic income maybe I'd take out a day and write it up! But here's a summary: I am in the top 20% whose income is still going up and whose tax will be used to pay out the UBI. What's in it for me? Why should I care? I really don't. And all the politicians are also in the top 1% (POTUS is a fucking billionaire, former POTUS…

The alternative to UBI for you is that you either spend the rest of your life in a castle or your head ends up on a spike. It isn't a coincidence that Thomas Piketty is a Parisian, you can still see plenty of signs of the Revolution on buildings around the city.

I don't see any support for your assertion. Why wouldn't we continue the status quo for a 1000 years? There certainly have been long periods in history where royalty has lived in riches and the majority have worked their ass off to support them. Only at the end do the royals get killed. But right now we're just starting! I expect this to last much longer too this time, since we have more automation now.
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