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Reddit Bans Nazi Groups and Others in Crackdown on Violent Content

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Re: Reddit Bans Nazi Groups and Others in Crackdown on Violent Content

#241

Post by KGIII »

uoaei wrote: post #198
KGIII wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, we have a starting point. Now, would you then agree that the primary purpose of a networked group of computers is the exchange of information? If you will agree to that, will you also agree that communication is information? If you will agree to that, and to the general concept of the freedom of expression, as an ideal to aspire to and not just a government restriction, would you then agree that even the shitties…

So if you agree that the providers of service on the internet are under no obligation to provide a soapbox for everyone who signs up, what do you recommend that that look like should one be established? A pretty common sentiment is that you neuter trolls when you remove any chance for anonymity, i.e., you put their reputation on the line. I would be happy to belong to a "free speech-oriented zone" on the internet tha…

This comment might help:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15566320

Right now, they have Voat. But, the recent trend has been more and more aggressive censorship - including from sites that used to tolerate the truly deplorable.

It is a worrying trend. Homosexuality was once deplorable. Transfolk were once deplorable. Atheism was once deplorable. In some parts of the world, they still are. To some people, in your own country, they still are.

Cheer on.

I am not afraid of the deplorable on Voat. You know what does scare me? Children with access to real military weapons, not their daddy's AR. A keyboard warrior with bad grammar and a Nazi flag is a pretty horrible person. I've seen worse.

Re: Reddit Bans Nazi Groups and Others in Crackdown on Violent Content

#242

Post by sighwhatnow »

KGIII wrote: post #109
sighwhatnow wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please explain what human rights have to do with anything in this thread. As another commenter pointed out, there is no human right to post racist bullshit on a privately run online forum.

I don't think you actually read what I said. Please do so. You will note that I point out that no rights are violated and even provide an alternative. You asked a question, I gave you the answer. Please, really, read all the words and what I write, not what you think I write. Start from the top post, as all my replies are contextual.

I read what you wrote, and I read the whole thread, and the context.

You brought up human rights in the context of this discussion more than once, what else are we supposed to take from that, than that you think 'human rights' are remotely relevant to the topic of banning nazis from reddit, which they aren't.

Re: Reddit Bans Nazi Groups and Others in Crackdown on Violent Content

#243

Post by sighwhatnow »

notyourday wrote: post #214
sighwhatnow wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But, they still deserve to express themselves freely. Um, why. What makes you think this. If someone's opinions are stupid and abhorrent, why should they not experience an immediate and firm response, in ban-hammer form. Why do you want to give ignorant idiots a platform to spread their ignorant idiocy to other ignorant idiots (and e.g. provoke easily influenced mentally ill idiots who might want to drive cars into…

> Why do you want to give ignorant idiots a platform to spread their ignorant idiocy to other ignorant idiots (and e.g. provoke easily influenced mentally ill idiots who might want to drive cars into crowds). Because otherwise you would be shocked to wake up and realize that it is your views that are in a bubble and not theirs. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzJfMsbe7Ks Edit: It must be fun downvoting reality. Here:…

Yeah I'm quite happy in my bubble of civilised, grown-up, non-idiot racists thanks.

Re: Reddit Bans Nazi Groups and Others in Crackdown on Violent Content

#244

Post by sighwhatnow »

Noos wrote: post #225
sighwhatnow wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But, they still deserve to express themselves freely. Um, why. What makes you think this. If someone's opinions are stupid and abhorrent, why should they not experience an immediate and firm response, in ban-hammer form. Why do you want to give ignorant idiots a platform to spread their ignorant idiocy to other ignorant idiots (and e.g. provoke easily influenced mentally ill idiots who might want to drive cars into…

Because it easily becomes "let's prohibit any small minority group the people in power find distasteful or unpopular." The net hates/hated Scientologists, for example, but I'm sure you could find others. Jehovah's Witnesses generally are disliked or have only negative public perception.

1. Don't slippery slope this, we're talking about hate speech. 2. Private company, Reddit can do what they want. 3. Scientologists and Jehovah's witnesses both earned their reputations.

Re: Reddit Bans Nazi Groups and Others in Crackdown on Violent Content

#245

Post by KGIII »

_khau wrote: post #209
JCharante wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I empathize with Hitler because he wasn't treated terribly well by those around him who should have been supportive. His dietician reportedly added bone marrow to his soups without his knowledge because she "despised" his vegetarian diet, and his Austrian cook would sometimes add animal broth or fat to his meals, which would then be noticed by Hitler who insisted on clear soups from then on. Despite Hitler disa…

How does any of that about Hitler relate to his policy of exterminating Jews? It's not as if his dietician and Eva Braun were nicer to him he would have decided not to implement the final solution. That's ridiculous. Once people start actively calling for the deaths of others based on race or religion or creed, that's where the fundamentally opposing ideologies are found that are only resolved through violence. The l…

There's a huge difference between appeasement and allowance of basic human rights, dignity, due process, empathy, and even sympathy.

I have had to lay down suppressive fire. I was willing to do so, but I hoped anyone I hit was killed quickly. I hoped they were killed quickly because, well, I didn't want them to suffer. I hoped they were killed because they were trying to kill the other scared young Marines beside me. Killing them was the only logical thing to do.

I'm not some hopeless naive child. I've personally witnessed human depravities that scar people for life, a fate worse than death.

You're scared of the people on Voat? Go there and read for a week. Go there and talk to them. Go there and belittle them, if you want. Have fun with it. Amuse yourself at their expense. Toy with them and make them dance for your amusement.

When you're done with that, maybe try to change some hearts and minds. You'll have gotten that out of your system and realized how powerless and ineffective they really are. They are powerless keyboard warriors spouting memes and racist slogans in an echo chamber full of logical errors and bad science and bastardized religious quotes.

Also, they hate fat people. Reddit kicked out FPH. No, really, those folks seriously hate fat people, but they tend to stick in their sub.

One sub really likes trees. Like, real trees, not pot.

They are humans. Deplorable humans, I agree. They even have a Linux section. As a Linux user, that makes me pretty deplorable too!

Seriously, go visit them. They are horrible people. However, they are mostly scared children. There's no need to be afraid. They are pretty universally powerless and reviled, even at the national political level - really. No need for hyperbole.

If you want, I will even introduce you on voat.co and you can go harass them until you realize they are just a bunch of really, really stupid, inept, confused, probably insane, brainwashed, morons with a poor grasp of reality and basic literacy.

You're more likely to die on your toilet.

Re: Reddit Bans Nazi Groups and Others in Crackdown on Violent Content

#246

Post by uoaei »

KGIII wrote: post #241
uoaei wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So if you agree that the providers of service on the internet are under no obligation to provide a soapbox for everyone who signs up, what do you recommend that that look like should one be established? A pretty common sentiment is that you neuter trolls when you remove any chance for anonymity, i.e., you put their reputation on the line. I would be happy to belong to a "free speech-oriented zone" on the internet tha…

This comment might help: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15566320 Right now, they have Voat. But, the recent trend has been more and more aggressive censorship - including from sites that used to tolerate the truly deplorable. It is a worrying trend. Homosexuality was once deplorable. Transfolk were once deplorable. Atheism was once deplorable. In some parts of the world, they still are. To some people, in your…

You're not scared. That's fine. For all I know, you have no reason to be scared of white nationalists, because to them, you're not the threat. That doesn't make it any safer for a large portion of the United States or other Western countries where these sentiments are popping back up.

We know Africa and South America and Southeast Asia are still relatively dangerous. That doesn't excuse the sentiments that are building here in the US whatsoever. It actually doesn't factor at all into this discussion because they are totally off the radar for people who should be provided the liberty of living without constant breathing down their neck and "go home" and "jews will not replace us." Where does the liberty from harassment and execution factor into your liberty ethics?

The issue is also not what happens right this moment, but what happens in 10 years' time when people have been surrounding themselves and their family and friends with this rhetoric. The history of the Nazi party following the fall of the Weimar republic doesn't span months, it spans a decade or more. What reason is there to deny some people the "right" to demonize and alienate minorities solely on the basis of inaccurate judgments when things could get a lot worse down the road? The slippery slope, after all, has two faces. We can just as easily say that granting some liberties now causes a lot of hurt down the road as removing them.

Re: Reddit Bans Nazi Groups and Others in Crackdown on Violent Content

#247

Post by mozumder »

dang wrote: post #194
mozumder wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love that there are people that think of Nazis as an academic expression group, instead of as a militant organization. These people have NO idea...

Would you please stop posting unsubstantive comments? You're flamebaiting to the point of trolling. (No, the mods are not Nazis.)

I wasn't referring to mods, but actual Nazis. I've actually personally experienced this, and remain injured because of them.

I can't emphasize this enough: Nazis really are a violent group, and should be treated as such, like you would any other violent group like ISIS, Al Queda, MS-13, mafia, etc.

They absolutely aren't an academic concept on race relations.

The fact that someone was actually murdered at the Charlottesville rally, or that three Nazis were arrested after firing at protesters just last week in Florida should be enough evidence of their propensity towards violence.

I mean, seriously, what else do you need?

It seems a lot of people have no idea that Nazis are a violent group. To me that speaks a lot of white privilege, giving them the benefit-of-the-doubt.

Re: Reddit Bans Nazi Groups and Others in Crackdown on Violent Content

#248

Post by KGIII »

uoaei wrote: post #246
KGIII wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This comment might help: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15566320 Right now, they have Voat. But, the recent trend has been more and more aggressive censorship - including from sites that used to tolerate the truly deplorable. It is a worrying trend. Homosexuality was once deplorable. Transfolk were once deplorable. Atheism was once deplorable. In some parts of the world, they still are. To some people, in your…

You're not scared. That's fine. For all I know, you have no reason to be scared of white nationalists, because to them, you're not the threat. That doesn't make it any safer for a large portion of the United States or other Western countries where these sentiments are popping back up. We know Africa and South America and Southeast Asia are still relatively dangerous. That doesn't excuse the sentiments that are buildi…

I'm not white. I'm quite distinctly not white. They would harm me, if they had the courage and means.

You would deprive them of their liberties without due process and you would do so out of fear. You justify it and call it rational.

That is how I see you. That is what I see when I read what you write.

I don't expect to change your views. I will point out that that sort of thinking is how the US ended up with things like the PATRIOT Act and FISA courts. Fearful people are not rational people, they are rationalizing people.

In ten years, do you want to live in some authoritarian society where every thought and expression must be approved by the public? Where no dangerous thought must be expressed? Where those declared deplorable must be silenced and shunned? Where there exist an oppressed class for their very thoughts, without acting on them?

I do not. I am not afraid. I am more afraid of ceding my liberties and my empathy. I am more afraid of a day when you are not allowed to speak out against Nazis.

Re: Reddit Bans Nazi Groups and Others in Crackdown on Violent Content

#249

Post by KGIII »

sighwhatnow wrote: post #242
KGIII wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you actually read what I said. Please do so. You will note that I point out that no rights are violated and even provide an alternative. You asked a question, I gave you the answer. Please, really, read all the words and what I write, not what you think I write. Start from the top post, as all my replies are contextual.

I read what you wrote, and I read the whole thread, and the context. You brought up human rights in the context of this discussion more than once, what else are we supposed to take from that, than that you think 'human rights' are remotely relevant to the topic of banning nazis from reddit, which they aren't.

What happens when there is no place left for the deplorable? The 'net was meant to work around censorship. Look at what it has become.

Reddit is just another brick in the wall. They can do this. Indeed, perhaps they should. But should we cheer it on? What happens when there are no reasonable means left for the deplorable to speak? What happens when censorship isn't fraught, when empathy is eschewed, when due process is forgotten?

Those are not Reddit's responsibilities. They are our responsibilities, as a society. It is very much a human rights issue, but not Reddit's sole responsibility. Right now, registrars refuse to even host domain names.

I'm not saying these are good people. Quite the opposite, really. Cheer the censorship on, it is your right. I'll stand up for your rights too.

Re: Reddit Bans Nazi Groups and Others in Crackdown on Violent Content

#250

Post by neo4sure »

tscs37 wrote: post #239
briantakita wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Lots of people disagree on the exact type of equality humanity should be aiming for. It's a complicated domain. There are other measures of humanity, such as Freedom, Liberty, & Incentives for Fitness (i.e. Morality). The root question is do the ends justify the means? Do you want Equality of outcome so much that you are willing to adopt Fascism to achieve those aims? Even then, you won't have Equality. As in Anima…

re: measures of humanity; I meant humanity as in the species, not as a quality. >The root question is do the ends justify the means? I do not believe the ends will ever justify the means, but that is just my opinion on the matter. >Do you want Equality of outcome so much that you are willing to adopt Fascism to achieve those aims? I'm personally satisfied with equality of chance such that everyone has an equal chance…

I would say equality vote is very important it was missing in this country not long ago. I would say that demonstrates an unyielding vein in this country that seems to be against equality. However, equality was achieved without violence. Why is violence required for your argument?
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