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Saving San Francisco goes deeper than “build more housing”

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171–180 of 261 posts

Re: Saving San Francisco goes deeper than “build more housing”

#171
His proposal is two-fold, for those who want a summary.

1) Build better transit to connect areas that are affordable (or areas at all i.e. San Jose / Oakland) to central business districts

2) To accomplish this by creating a centralized governing authority for the whole Bay Area.

I wonder if this kind of consolidation has ever happened before. Did New York City absorb areas that it now controls as it evolved, or did the parties agree afterward to some symbiotic relationship?

Re: Saving San Francisco goes deeper than “build more housing”

#172
post #163
post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, serious question, explain to me why you think the weather is "miserable" and what is it you "do" all the time that you can't imagine living in Fresno? I don't get it. There are national forests there. Woodward Park is huge. There is an international airport. What kinds of activities are you into that you can't get your needs met in a city of 500,000 people, about the 36th largest city in the US IIRC, which means…

110 degrees in August.

That's it?

Re: Saving San Francisco goes deeper than “build more housing”

#173
post #163
post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, serious question, explain to me why you think the weather is "miserable" and what is it you "do" all the time that you can't imagine living in Fresno? I don't get it. There are national forests there. Woodward Park is huge. There is an international airport. What kinds of activities are you into that you can't get your needs met in a city of 500,000 people, about the 36th largest city in the US IIRC, which means…

110 degrees in August.

but you have AC!

Re: Saving San Francisco goes deeper than “build more housing”

#174
post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, serious question, explain to me why you think the weather is "miserable" and what is it you "do" all the time that you can't imagine living in Fresno? I don't get it. There are national forests there. Woodward Park is huge. There is an international airport. What kinds of activities are you into that you can't get your needs met in a city of 500,000 people, about the 36th largest city in the US IIRC, which means…

I’m sure there’s all kinds of cool stuff in Fresno if you know where to look. It’s not the same as the Bay Area though.

So much closer to the mountains! Real mountains, not hills.

Re: Saving San Francisco goes deeper than “build more housing”

#175
post #171

His proposal is two-fold, for those who want a summary. 1) Build better transit to connect areas that are affordable (or areas at all i.e. San Jose / Oakland) to central business districts 2) To accomplish this by creating a centralized governing authority for the whole Bay Area. I wonder if this kind of consolidation has ever happened before. Did New York City absorb areas that it now controls as it evolved, or did…

I'd argue Oakland is fairly well connected to the SF CBD. A lot of people in Oakland live within (at most) a 15-20 minute walk of a BART station, and then it's ~20 minutes to downtown SF, with only a handful of stops.

What surprises me is that there aren't more startups headquartered in Oakland. Sure, it's a bit more hassle for people in SF to get out there, but you're going against the flow of traffic, so the commute is pleasant. And my suspicion is there are a lot of senior people living in the East Bay (or even further out). People who've moved on from small apartments and roommates and and have their own places, or have a family, or want cheaper rent... whatever it is. I suspect there's enough of those people who'd love to be getting on and off at 19th St Oakland and working down near Lake Merritt, rather than commuting into the city. I have a senior engineer friend, living in Berkeley, who said he'd take a $20k pay cut not to have to commute into SF. And that's not even a bad commute.

If I was starting up, looking to save some money, and wanting to hire experienced developers, I would definitely be setting up in Oakland.

Re: Saving San Francisco goes deeper than “build more housing”

#176
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's great, but it seems kind of orthogonal and non-scalable to the problem of the Bay Area housing crisis. Are you proposing that everyone in SF move to places like the Central Valley (driving up price) and start driving around cars (increasing traffic and pollution)? What about folks who don't have the luxury of jobs where they can work remotely?

>What about folks who don't have the luxury of jobs where they can work remotely? I would bet >50% of the people working in the bay area who say they can't work remote are doing jobs that could very easily be done remote. Do you work on a computer? You can do that remote.

Employers are still leery of too much work-from-home. My company allows it, but only one day a week. Even people who are ostensibly working from home full time typically have to show up to the office occasionally for meetings and such, so they can't move too far.

Re: Saving San Francisco goes deeper than “build more housing”

#177

The real solution is for companies like Apple, Google, Facebook, etc to have the COURAGE to create large work epicenters outside of the Bay Area. Create headquarters for tens of thousands of workers in more remote areas with a strong infrastructure, with great benefits for working families. Do what Amazon wants to do with a second HQ, and create demand outside of the Bay Area. If Google created a new HQ in Kansas Cit…

> If Google created a new HQ in Kansas City, with it's fiber links, and low cost of living, and added really great benefits like free day care, etc, then won't software engineers move there, especially those that are ready to start a family? I bet you they would. I definitely would. Maybe some, but I'd be really surprised if you get substantial numbers of your top people to move - which effectively blocks the overall…

At some point though, if Bay area housing prices continue to rise because of all the people who must must must live there, the Googles and Apples of the world aren't going to keep raising salary levels accordingly. And startups/smaller companies (to say nothing of many non-tech jobs) certainly won't/can't. Something's got to give and even if housing supply increases somewhat (as it's slowly doing) there's inevitably going to be some equilibrium where enough potential employees and employers go enough is enough and move elsewhere.

After all, there are plenty of successful, non-startup companies that are quite distributed.

Re: Saving San Francisco goes deeper than “build more housing”

#178
post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He didn't use a car to commute before (I'd hope) given he was in the middle of SF. But now he likely needs one to get to the grocery, take his kids to school, etc even if he's WFH. And he's likely also using more energy at home, too. So yes, more pollution - and if a lot of other people moved there, higher prices too.

Well, if a neighbourhood is good and convenient, it is only natural that more people would like to move there, more energy would be consumed and prices would rise. Besides this obvious thing, what exactly is your point?

The point is you haven't solved the problem. You've just moved it to a different place. Urban sprawl is pretty well acknowledged to be a bad thing (TM) - it increases pollution, is bad for people's health, bad for the social fabric, etc etc.

Saying "it's crowded here, let's go move somewhere else and make that crowded" is not just kicking the can, it's making the problem worse because often those areas have even less mass transit.

Re: Saving San Francisco goes deeper than “build more housing”

#179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aren't there attractive places in California where tech companies could set up offices to accommodate those who want to leave the valley, while still making sure everyone is still just a few hours drive away if they should be required in a meeting at main HQ?

Attractive enough to pull the top talent? No The underlying problem here is the same problem you have with remote work - it's vastly harder to get complex tasks done when people are remote. For all sorts of reasons (including project expediency), you ideally want the front-line programmers in the same office as the technical leaders.

So how do you think most open source software development, for example, happens? Or does that not qualify as a complex task? Because a huge amount of open source development happens through distributed individuals and groups many of which don't even work for the same company.

Re: Saving San Francisco goes deeper than “build more housing”

#180
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a difference between the major park in a major city that is used by thousands of people a day, and that shitty town of 5k people that doesn't want anyone else to move in. Shit, there are more people in GGP right now than there will be all week in Brisbane. At the same time it's not like Brisbane isn't building. They just aren't building housing , because they want to build commercial so they can get the taxes…

Yes there is a difference. The difference is that Golden Gate Park is near the author's home, and Brisbane isn't. High rise condos around Golden Gate park wouldn't affect the usability of Golden Gate Park all that much. It would barely affect the beauty. Yes, Brisbane ought to build more housing, but what is good for the goose is also good for the gander. And if we want Brisbane to give up its autonomy so that we can…

There is a huge difference between "lets build our denser high rises in these areas so as to protect our park" versus "lets not build any residential properties in our city at all", and trying to act as if they are the same is horribly disingenuous.
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