Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

A man who 'discovered' 780 Indian languages

bbc.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

51–60 of 129 posts

Re: A man who 'discovered' 780 Indian languages

#51

Post by samstave »

nathancahill wrote: post #41
Alex3917 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's interesting that the same technologies we use to preserve language (audio/film/text) are also largely the reason for their destruction. If you just have two people talking with each other in the woods there aren't any economies of scale, no 'best' version of Wikipedia, no Hollywood movies to watch, etc. While not related to language, except for one episode, NPR's archive of lost & found sound is also worth check…

Along the same vein, worth checking out the archives of Alan Lomax. He spent 70 years collecting oral and folk music recordings across America, the Caribbean and the UK. Now in the Library of Congress[0]. Some of his recordings are famously sampled on Moby's Play album. [0] https://www.loc.gov/folklife/folkcat.html

Oh man, those samples on minus album are amazing.

When that album came out it was the only CD I had with me on a six month back-packing trip... memories - and those samples are brilliant

Re: A man who 'discovered' 780 Indian languages

#52

Post by 1024core »

dang wrote: post #35
1024core wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was objecting to a mischaracterization in the article. I took a literal quote from the article and objected to it; I did not make it up, or change topics.

Sure, but none of that changes the point about not taking HN into flamewars.

I agree. It was not my intention to start a flamewar; but with all the talk about "biased RT", "biased Al Jazeera", etc. flying about, I wanted to point out how BBC also is equally biased, just not in the direction "we" would like them to be.

And https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmin5WkOuPw

Re: A man who 'discovered' 780 Indian languages

#53

Post by cortesoft »

Alex3917 wrote: post #26
beat wrote: post #11

This reminded me of a video I saw once, many years ago. It was told by the last speaker of a language - from a tribe in El Salvador, iirc (Central America, for sure). Most of his tribe had been wiped out during civil war. He and his parents were the last living speakers of their language. When his parents died, he was the last. The video was a long, tearful poem, telling the story of his people and their destruction.…

It's interesting that the same technologies we use to preserve language (audio/film/text) are also largely the reason for their destruction. If you just have two people talking with each other in the woods there aren't any economies of scale, no 'best' version of Wikipedia, no Hollywood movies to watch, etc. While not related to language, except for one episode, NPR's archive of lost & found sound is also worth check…

I don't know, languages have been dying out for a lot longer than those technologies have been around. Languages die when the cultures who speak them either get assimilated or eradicated; I am not sure what technology has to do with that?

Re: A man who 'discovered' 780 Indian languages

#54

Post by axiom92 »

pavanred wrote: post #31

On a slightly related topic, India has a vast and rich set of languages and millions of people that speak/read/write these languages. With daily newspapers, tabloids, literature etc, I presume there is a (potential) huge corpus of rich data for each language too. And, I just read yesterday that India just surpassed US to become the second biggest mobile phone market. Then why is there not more of NLP work/products on…

> On a slightly related topic, India has a vast and rich set of languages and millions of people that speak/read/write these languages.

My landlady needs to know this. She still thinks we all speak "Indian".

Re: A man who 'discovered' 780 Indian languages

#55

Post by asdfaefasdf »

jlg23 wrote: post #49
ravirajx7 wrote: post #20

One of the main reason behind the 'developing' state of India even after 70 years of independence is its differences which Indians still have in their mind. The language barrier is the only barrier which is proving to be resistance let alone culture prevention and all that. Languages are just a form of communication between people and people should accept it. People should learn languages like English(Which have vast…

Given that English is already fragmenting (just read a newspaper from Guyana) and with the example of the Arab language (watch an Egyptian try talking with a Moroccan - bring popcorn): I am not sure your advice is a good one. English, like every other language, limits what you can say to what can be expressed in it. From personal experience, I'd rather recommend to dabble in as many languages as possible: Each new la…

>just read a newspaper from Guyana

I just glanced as 5 online papers, and one scanned tabloid-style paper.

I still have no idea what you are talking about. What am I supposed to be detecting in the writing here?

edit: I guess I found one or two slight different ways of expressing things, like starting a sentence with "Said he:", but, really it's fairly minor.

Re: A man who 'discovered' 780 Indian languages

#56

Post by _jgdh »

deanstag wrote: post #24
ravirajx7 wrote: post #20

One of the main reason behind the 'developing' state of India even after 70 years of independence is its differences which Indians still have in their mind. The language barrier is the only barrier which is proving to be resistance let alone culture prevention and all that. Languages are just a form of communication between people and people should accept it. People should learn languages like English(Which have vast…

Promoting a language because the Prime minister finds himself more proficient orator in the language? I find that hard to believe. Do you have sources on this?

The promotion of Hindi as the most important language in India is not limited to this Prime Minister or administration. It has a long history, starting from Independence in 1947, when the writers of the Constitution decided that English would slowly be phased out in preference to Hindi [1]. Unsurprisingly, foisting a foreign language on native speakers of Tamil, Telugu, Bengali and other languages was met with fierce resistance. In 1965, this policy was abandoned by the Union Government. Unfortunately, the Hindi speakers who generally dominate government never gave up this crusade. Every now and then they try something that will slightly push the boundaries of what people will tolerate, while not letting the the issue become too large.

Sneaky tactics of the last few years include

* In 2014, Modi decided that all social media accounts run by the government would communicate in Hindi, not English. [2]

* In November 2016, new notes were issued that had numbers in Devanagari for the first time in 69 years since Independence, rather than Arabic numerals. [3]

* In March 2017 mile markers in Tamil Nadu were in English and Tamil. Tamil was replaced by Hindi [3]

But this is not limited to this particular government. Previous governments have taken similar steps. Personal anecdote - I studied in an institution funded by Union government where all signposts were written in English and Tamil. This was replaced across the campus at great cost with signposts written in Hindi, English and Tamil. There was not a single person on that campus who didn't know English or Tamil or both, but the Union govt wanted to send a message anyway. It left a bitter taste in my mouth.

The sad part is that its not just about hurt feelings, as some Hindi speakers might characterise all of this. We are going down the exact same path as Pakistan did post Independence. They tried to force Urdu down the throats of the millions of Bengali speakers living in (then) East Pakistan. "Incentives" to learn Urdu effectively ended up discriminating against the Bengalis, leaving them disenfranchised. Eventually they couldn't take it any longer and declared Independence. I wish we could learn from history rather than repeating the same old mistakes.

[1] - http://www.constitution.org/cons/india/p17351.html (It shall be the duty of the Union to promote the spread of the Hindi language, to develop it so that it may serve as a medium of expression for all the elements of the composite culture of India)

[2] - https://www.nbcnews.com/news/asian-america/india-pm-modi-dem...

[3] - http://indianexpress.com/article/opinion/web-edits/by-pushin...

Re: A man who 'discovered' 780 Indian languages

#57

Post by afghanPower »

axiom92 wrote: post #54
pavanred wrote: post #31

On a slightly related topic, India has a vast and rich set of languages and millions of people that speak/read/write these languages. With daily newspapers, tabloids, literature etc, I presume there is a (potential) huge corpus of rich data for each language too. And, I just read yesterday that India just surpassed US to become the second biggest mobile phone market. Then why is there not more of NLP work/products on…

> On a slightly related topic, India has a vast and rich set of languages and millions of people that speak/read/write these languages. My landlady needs to know this. She still thinks we all speak "Indian".

Correct me if I'm wrong, but most Indians do understand "urdu", no?

Re: A man who 'discovered' 780 Indian languages

#58

Post by nonamechicken »

ravirajx7 wrote: post #37
deanstag wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Promoting a language because the Prime minister finds himself more proficient orator in the language? I find that hard to believe. Do you have sources on this?

It's not just that. Ever since he has got his position he is trying to promote India's ethnic values and culture and he's not saying "Bhaiyo aur beheno bas hindi bolo" ( brothers and sisters just speak hindi) and nobody is imposing the language hindi on anyone. But if you're living in a country and serving people(working in government sector) where almost majority of the people speak hindi don't you think you should…

It's perfectly fine to choose Hindi over English in Hindi speaking states (North India). But why some North Indians demand that South Indians speak in Hindi because it's our "national language"? That's where this Hindi imposition becomes a problem. South has it's own languages, cultures, food. I get the feeling that BJP wants whole of India to follow North Indian version of Hinduism.

Re: A man who 'discovered' 780 Indian languages

#59

Post by axiom92 »

afghanPower wrote: post #57
axiom92 wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> On a slightly related topic, India has a vast and rich set of languages and millions of people that speak/read/write these languages. My landlady needs to know this. She still thinks we all speak "Indian".

Correct me if I'm wrong, but most Indians do understand "urdu", no?

People with an understanding of Hindi should be able to understand everyday Urdu.

Re: A man who 'discovered' 780 Indian languages

#60

Post by nonamechicken »

_jgdh wrote: post #56
deanstag wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Promoting a language because the Prime minister finds himself more proficient orator in the language? I find that hard to believe. Do you have sources on this?

The promotion of Hindi as the most important language in India is not limited to this Prime Minister or administration. It has a long history, starting from Independence in 1947, when the writers of the Constitution decided that English would slowly be phased out in preference to Hindi [1]. Unsurprisingly, foisting a foreign language on native speakers of Tamil, Telugu, Bengali and other languages was met with fierce…

Another story I heard from a colleague. Army came for NCC training to a school in South India. They asked the boys who don't speak Hindi to come forward. Then they made them do 100 frog jumps as punishment.
Post reply on HN