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Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#611

Post by dang »

kolbe wrote: post #590
dang wrote: post #467

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you please stop posting flamebait and/or unsubstantive comments to Hacker News? We have enough trouble with flamewars as it is, and you've unfortunately been doing this quite a bit. If you'd read the guidelines and stick to them when commenting here, we'd appreciate it: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html .

And by far the least substantiated and most insulting comment in many threads is you saying "flame" and "flamebait" all the time. This term does not have a very good definition. It's very hard for anyone to know what exactly it is that you're trying to regulate when you use such a vague and condescending colloquialism. And you do it in like half of your posts.

If you don't see what's wrong with what you posted above, read https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and take them to heart. It's not hard to use this site as intended if you want to.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#612

Post by coryfklein »

barrkel wrote: post #93
yeukhon wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would the Spanish government let the Catalans declare independence regardless of the outcome of the illegal referendum?

Because the alternative is forcible oppression and denial of the right of self-determination. Read more about the right of self-determination here: http://www.unpo.org/article/4957

Would self-determination have argued in favor of the secession of the south?

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#613

Post by pvaldes »

hutzlibu wrote: post #574
alexandrerond wrote: post #530

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And many died, were tortured or disappeared who did not bow their head low enough to the fascists. So one should not forget that long episode. Note that this happened all over Spain, it was not just Catalonia suffering this. > Spain also never had a denazification since Franco Spain has had a low-speed consolidation of its democratic system. It is important to realize that, even though slow, it is miraculous that S…

"Note that this happened all over Spain, it was not just Catalonia suffering this." But they probably suffered much more than others. Definitely more than spanish thinking people. "Resentment may fuel nationalist feelings, but makes a bad argument in the current setting." It is not about resentment, but about the fear that those who suppressed the catalans still would do it, if they can. Openly or behind doors. And i…

> they probably suffered much more than others

You must be joking... :-(

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#614

Post by tassl »

alexandrerond wrote: post #202

It's very hard to see a discussion on this topic that does not miss the true point: This "conflict" is the fight between nationalist movements (Spanish and Catalan) which re-enforce each other in every turn for the worse of the majority and of the European Union. On the Catalan side, the Nationalist movement is used by dubious politicians which belong to the richer statements of Catalan society to grab power and "mak…

I think that it is unfortunate that this seems to be the consensus among a lot of people. While there is clearly nationalism in both sides, we can't generalize and state that both pro and against independence are basically nationalist movements. That's unfair, that is simply not true.

Catalan independence movement is highly diverse, with people from extremely different political views.

The core question here, and I haven't seen it exposed, is when and under which circumstances can a certain region of a current state be allowed to become independent. Spain defends that once a majority of Spanish people decides they can, while most catalans (according to polls) want to have that sovereignty. Up until now sovereignty has been decided by force; if you are strong enough you have it. Catalonia is pushing for changes on that respect, trying to execute that sovereignty even though Catalonia does not have currently the strength to defend it.

Whether the reasons for independence are or not legitimated, the real question is when and how a certain territory can execute self determination without the need of a war. As far as I know there are no cases where the independence has been accepted from the country where the territory wanted to split from. Spain has multiple examples where they didn't accept independence (their former colonies, for instance, or Kosovo more recently).

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#615

Post by tathougies »

robrenaud wrote: post #556

Yeah, as a native North American English speaker, I will say that the courts are definitely part of what I understand government to be, and it would be very confusing to think of the government as only consisting of the legislature.

You mean as an American (or I guess Mexican) English speaker. All parliamentary systems (including Canada) do not have an independent judiciary or executive. The Westminster system is founded on parliamentary sovereignty -- that is parliament can basically do as it pleases.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#616

Post by jasode »

lfischer wrote: post #588
jasode wrote: post #507

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>miss the true point: This "conflict" is the fight between nationalist movements (Spanish and Catalan) which re-enforce each other in every turn for the worse of the majority and of the European Union. To me, it seems your characterization of "true point" adds layers of abstractions such as "nationalists" and "right-wing movements" . Sure, you're writing text that can be considered "correct" but it actually doesn't h…

Why do you call ‘nationalists’ and ‘right-wing movements’ abstractions?

You're misunderstanding what I wrote. I'm not calling nationalists (the people) an "abstraction" to delegitimize or dismiss them.

I'm saying alexandrerond's first attempted explanation of the "true point" isn't very effective because he used abstract labels such as "nationalists". The subsequent paragraphs in that post referred back to "nationalists" creating a circular explanation.

His later reply to me had more concrete examples and motives instead of abstract labels such as "right-wing". Concrete text is what more readers can identify with (especially readers who are not familiar with Catalonia's situation.)

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#617

Post by alvatar »

phaemon wrote: post #432
alvatar wrote: post #420

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not limited to that. I agree that you should be able to learn in Catalan (but have the option of Spanish too). Visit the Catalan wikipedia, and you'll see how History is changed there with respect other Wikipedias. Read their books to see the bias in the way History is told. Indoctrination is a message with a "them and us" message that polarizes society, and has successfully done so. We all know words can be use…

Once again, vague accusations with no concrete examples. I'm not convinced. Sounds like you just have a bias against Catalonia.

You can actually check my previous claims. They are not vague. Is just too extent, so if you want to dig deeper feel free to read both sides of the story, and not just what your particular media tells you.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#618

Post by alvatar »

kilburn wrote: post #548
alvatar wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I keep reading this in international media. The Spanish government didn't declare the referendum illegal. It was the top court, which is independent from the government. The government ensures that the law is applied once that is decided. That said, I think Spain should have held a referendum (by changing the constitution). Everything would have been much easier.

All 12 of the members in the Spanish "top court" (Constitutional Tribunal) are appointed by the king himself. 8 of them are proposed by the legislative branch (parliament and senate), 2 by the executive, and 2 by the judicial. Whether that makes the tribunal as a whole independent from the government or not is an opinion I leave to the reader.

Please don't bend the facts for your own bias. The king doesn't appoint those judges, will just ratify and is pretty much symbolical. They do have political influence but is kept balance traditionally. Just because everyone has political inclinations you cannot blame it of being controled by the government.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#619

Post by dragonwriter »

coryfklein wrote: post #612
barrkel wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the alternative is forcible oppression and denial of the right of self-determination. Read more about the right of self-determination here: http://www.unpo.org/article/4957

Would self-determination have argued in favor of the secession of the south?

> Would self-determination have argued in favor of the secession of the south?

Perhaps, if that is what the people in the South (and not just those in positions of relative legal privilege) wanted.

But I doubt that, for example, the 55% of Mississippi's population that was in slavery was particularly energized about secession to preserve the right of their masters to keep them in slavery, though.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#620

Post by kilburn »

alexandrerond wrote: post #553
dmichulke wrote: post #527

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Politicians are not focused on crushing poverty, judges are not working to end corruption, police is not busy catching terrorists. Smaller states have fewer levels of hierarchy and are usually more efficient at what they're doing and less corrupt. Also, people have it easier to exert pressure on their representatives, be it by throwing stones in their windows, not serving the prime minister at the local bakery or j…

This might be right. But also note that Spain already features a lot of decentralization and Catalonia is at the head of this. This is very illustrative https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autonomous_communities_of_Spai...

Take that chart with a grain of salt. Notice the text above it:

> In some cases the autonomous community may have exclusive responsibility for the administration of a policy area but may only have executive (i.e.,carries out) powers as far as the policy itself is concerned, meaning it must enforce policy and laws decided at the national level.

There is no indication of which competences are only executive and which are legislative, whereas there's a huge difference between those in practice. Also, Spain can enact laws "overriding" the transferred competences at their will...

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