Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain • Hacker News Board

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#441

Post by oldmandutch » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 4:19 PM UTC

zeveb wrote: post #304

fusiongyro wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there a legal way for US states to secede?

The 10th Amendment reads 'The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.' The Constitution is silent on secession: it neither forbids it nor lays out procedures for it. Since the power to remove a State from the United States is not delegated to the United States, it is reserved to the respective States,…

Nah, the USC would say it falls under the Inter State Commerce Clause. That thing has been twisted like a pretzel to support expansion of govt power.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#442

Post by ben_w » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 4:19 PM UTC

microcolonel wrote: post #437

ben_w wrote: post #429

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Genocide isn’t the alternative but rather the escalation in the hypothetical where the 2nd Amendment is relevant. The US does have nukes, after all.

I don't imagine there would be popular support for the U.S. government nuking Americans in Seattle over a sovereignty dispute.

Neither do I, but the US doesn’t currently have any serious independence movements and last time it did things went very badly indeed.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#443

Post by simion314 » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 4:19 PM UTC

ecshafer wrote: post #107

simion314 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the referendum was invalid because of the constitution, you can't ignore the constitution because you want, you need to change the constitution.

This is really not a useful argument. Self determination is a natural right. The idea that it's against the law to seek it doesn't work when the people themselves are arguing they don't want to be under that law.

But then you can apply same logic when a city or a village vote to not pay taxes there, or have special rules, my opinion is that constitution is a very important law and there is a reason that changing it requires the majority to vote(probably differs by country). I understand your point but to get the independence is something extreme in this case it should not be a simple process but something more complex otherwise bypassing the constitution can happen every month.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#444

Post by rayiner » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 4:20 PM UTC

rhino369 wrote: post #431

rayiner wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If an identifiable geographic region wants to secede, and there is sufficient support among the public, it should be able to do so. Crimea I think falls into that group: 93% voting in favor of joining Russia with 83% turnout.

I think there needs to be more than just a geographic region. A people have a right to self-determination. I'm not sure if any group of persons should. You need to look at history, ethnicity, language, culture, etc.

Fair point.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#445

Post by simion314 » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 4:21 PM UTC

setzer22 wrote: post #151

nemo44x wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then change the constitution instead of blithely ignoring it and conducting an illegal election.

Catalonia has, unfortunately, 0 power in changing the Spanish constitution. It's up to Spain's good will to do so. And we have seen enough examples of such will.

Did they tried? I did nto read that they proposed it and had a referendum about changing it.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#446

Post by dragonwriter » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 4:22 PM UTC

microcolonel wrote: post #437

ben_w wrote: post #429

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Genocide isn’t the alternative but rather the escalation in the hypothetical where the 2nd Amendment is relevant. The US does have nukes, after all.

I don't imagine there would be popular support for the U.S. government nuking Americans in Seattle over a sovereignty dispute.

It would never be “over a sovereignty dispute”, it would be to stop what the rebels were imminently going to do in that sovereignty dispute. Nuking is extreme, but there will always be (at least, in the eyes of the government) a excuse to escalate to the level beyond what is available to the rebels to protect the innocent threatened by them.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#447

Post by kingofpandora » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 4:22 PM UTC

confounded wrote: post #395

tolien wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s always the risk that you don’t get what you want, like the UK’s referendum on membership of the EU.

Who didn’t get what they wanted?

> Who didn’t get what they wanted?

Scotland.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#448

Post by dagaci » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 4:22 PM UTC

Regardless, if 90% of a population wishes to be independent, then they should be allowed to have that independence as long as both sides are prepared to adhere to sensible law and order, humane rights and decency.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#449

Post by alex_young » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 4:23 PM UTC

hummel wrote: post #88

Spanish here, I have family and home in Catalonia. 1) You need to read history to understand the situation. But not the history of the last 100 years, but of the last 1000. Catalonia was never independent, it was part of the Kingdom of Aragon. The kingdom of Aragon and the castle kingdom allied in a dynastic way and created what is known today as Spain. There is no 2) Voting is illegal, it is not illegal to vote but…

"Catalonia was never independent" - it was indeed, and in the 20th century. George Orwell wrote a first hand account of his observations while fighting for their independence called "On Catalonia". Worth a read if you're looking for historical context.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#450

Post by petre » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 4:23 PM UTC

ealexhudson wrote: post #219

dageshi wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The UK public has historically been one of the most eurosceptic countries in europe and certainly the most eurosceptic in the EU. When given an actual chance to vote on the issue amazingly the British public followed through... who could possibly have seen that coming? The farce is that people who should've known that were somehow shocked by it.

Only in recent history. Post-war through to the eighties, it was pro-Europe and influential in Europe (at least, the EC, etc.)

The British are not sceptic about Europe, they're sceptic about the EU. There is no farce. 67% voted to join the EC in 1975 and 52% voted to leave the EU in 2016.