Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain • Hacker News Board

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#411

Post by aminorex » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 4:04 PM UTC

johnnyfaehell wrote: post #29

From my not so knowledgeable point of view we have: It seems the Spanish government messed up massively here. Instead of embracing a referendum about independence they decided to flatly declare it illegal and attempt to ignore the problem. If they initially embraced the referendum they could have won, I believe that a Yes vote to independence nearly always ends up failing. But instead what happened is, they blankly d…

Despots rarely give up without a fight. I question whether Catalans are willing to pay with their blood to gain their freedom. Clearly Rajoy is happy to shed their blood in order to keep them in thralldom.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#412

Post by RobertoG » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 4:04 PM UTC

pvaldes wrote: post #295

johnnyfaehell wrote: post #29

From my not so knowledgeable point of view we have: It seems the Spanish government messed up massively here. Instead of embracing a referendum about independence they decided to flatly declare it illegal and attempt to ignore the problem. If they initially embraced the referendum they could have won, I believe that a Yes vote to independence nearly always ends up failing. But instead what happened is, they blankly d…

> Instead of embracing a referendum about independence they decided to flatly declare it illegal Not, this is a lie. Was not the government that declared it illegal. Were the judges of the hightest spanish tribunal, because in their opinion this is a disguised coup against constitution. > Once they had the massive yes vote the only way out to the evil government is to surrender and negociate... Another thousand times…

Not sure why you feel the need to use slavery or communist as an example here, instead of, for instance, secessionist.

Maybe you expect to elicit a sense of horror in your readers?

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#413

Post by microcolonel » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 4:04 PM UTC

ben_w wrote: post #192

nemo44x wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When only one of the sides have weapons, there can not be a civil war, only a genocide. Certainly an argument in support of the second amendment of the United States.

I suspect the only reason the US government lets Americans think the second amendment would enable the population to forcibly remove an undesirable government, is because the weapons and strategic/tactical/leadership skills of the population are vastly out-classed by the armed forces. What good is a semi-automatic against a supersonic jet that just fired an air-to-ground missile in your direction? Plenty of AK-47s in…

In other asymmetric warfare situations, supersonic jets have done very little to end a conflict. No sane person would ever want to start a war with a civil militia containing nearly all able-bodied men in a region; it's bad enough when just a couple per cent are against you, all with small arms. Imagine how bad it would be with 20%, 30%, 40% of the able-bodied against you.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#414

Post by gonvaled » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 4:05 PM UTC

fasteo wrote: post #390

This was just a rhetoric declaration as they knew that the government would trigger the 155 article moments after this declaration. In practical terms, it means nothing. At least nothing for Catalonia as a region. The Catalonian government, however, will face rebellion charges on Monday. They can get up to 30 years in prison. Why did they do this ? No idea. I hope someday we can get to know the intrahistory of all th…

Because they feel they have a mandate?

Or said differently, what would you do? You campaigned for it, organized a referendum, won it and now you do not follow through? What would your voters say?

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#415

Post by heavenlyblue » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 4:06 PM UTC

mixmastamyk wrote: post #332

heavenlyblue wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about the whole of the country subsidising the more wealthy region by things like brain-drain and leanier taxation? What would happen if California were to separate from the US? Who would afford their army? What about billions invested by the whole of US in the industries there? By your logic I may just reply that "if the people want independence now - then all that matters if I have enough military power to kee…

Rich regions typically subsidize poor areas, not the other way around. Also, industry in Spain is largely private.

Poor areas are subsidized for a number of reasons, one is to be in control of the area.

Give it up and someone else will happily take it: what about deregulated toxic disposal at the state level? what about coca leaf production in deserted areas? arms production with no oversight?

Well, here we are.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#416

Post by Findeton » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 4:06 PM UTC

Ajedi32 wrote: post #392

Findeton wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Catalan Parliament and the Catalan Government are very distinct bodies. The Catalan Parliament is just like congress in the US: it also includes representatives of the opposition. They are the lawmakers. The Catalan Gov is the body that applies laws and it includes no member from the opposition. Yes, the Catalan Parliament is petitioning. At least in the formal legal realm.

So legally, does the Catalan Government have to comply with that petition? And if not, wouldn't that mean the Catalan Parliament doesn't actually have any real authority? Or is there some other legal mechanism they could use to force the Catalan Government to comply?

The executive branch, the "Catalan Government", doesn't have to comply with that petition, because resolution proposals are non-binding. The Catalan Parliament _does_ have real authority, because they have the legal authority to pass/approve laws (which a resolution proposal is not), and those laws are of course legally binding.

It's just that the parliament, in this case, has decided not to approve a law but a resolution proposal. Of course, they chose so to cover themselves and reduce the personal legal risks/repercussions for congressmen of approving this so-called "declaration of independence". Also the vote was secret because of that reason.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#417

Post by Godel_unicode » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 4:06 PM UTC

flamedoge wrote: post #232

TallGuyShort wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> The illegality of their vote is supported by the judicial system, not political. However it came about, that's a really political situation to be in. It sounds to me like Spain has set up a legal framework in which war is the only way to leave a democracy. I'm not familiar enough with Catalonia's motive's here to judge their decision, but that's a shitty situation in which to make that decision. And to be clear, I…

How to solve voter turnout? free donuts?

Make individuals feel their votes matter. Tricky, because obvious math says they don't.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#418

Post by detaro » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 4:07 PM UTC

ben_w wrote: post #192

nemo44x wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When only one of the sides have weapons, there can not be a civil war, only a genocide. Certainly an argument in support of the second amendment of the United States.

I suspect the only reason the US government lets Americans think the second amendment would enable the population to forcibly remove an undesirable government, is because the weapons and strategic/tactical/leadership skills of the population are vastly out-classed by the armed forces. What good is a semi-automatic against a supersonic jet that just fired an air-to-ground missile in your direction? Plenty of AK-47s in…

I wouldn't cite Afghanistan as an example of how well military high-tech works for suppression. If it did, it wouldn't be and wouldn't have been such a mess.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#419

Post by maksimum » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 4:07 PM UTC

_Tev wrote: post #320

smcl wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Carefully worded answer. To those who might take narag's words at face value, they're probably referring the 2014 referendum where voters were asked "do you want to Catalonia to be a state" and "and if so, do you want it to be independent". The result was 80% of the results were "yes" for both but the turnout was low (40-ish percent). I don't think that is exactly decisive for either side, but to claim it as a win fo…

If you want to be independent you go and vote. If you do not care you stay home. Such low turnout seems like a win for "no" camp, because people of Catalonia apparently do not care about independence from Spain.

Except in this case it was

If you want to be independent you go vote. If you do not care, or are afraid of getting hammered by Spanish police you stay home. In that case 43% turnout is pretty impressive.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#420

Post by alvatar » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 4:08 PM UTC

phaemon wrote: post #353

harperlee wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well I am referring to public schools. Public schools are controlled by the local government, and there are lots of complaints that options for parents that want teaching in Spanish for their children, for example, are close to non-existing. The teaching language is mandatorily Catalan until age 12, and then onwards chosen by the teacher, which is appointed by the local government. If you want education that resemble…

That seems reasonable enough. If you're going to live in Catelonia, then it seems right that you should learn Catalan. How exactly is learning a language "indoctrination"? Are children indoctrinated when they're taught through Spanish?

It's not limited to that. I agree that you should be able to learn in Catalan (but have the option of Spanish too). Visit the Catalan wikipedia, and you'll see how History is changed there with respect other Wikipedias. Read their books to see the bias in the way History is told. Indoctrination is a message with a "them and us" message that polarizes society, and has successfully done so. We all know words can be used in ways that can build a way of thinking of a generation. Well, those words are in the education system.