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Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#371

Post by xtreme »

eponeponepon wrote: post #187
joaomval wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many countries got independent legally?

Plenty. India, Kenya, Australia, Canada and various ex-SSRs all spring to mind. Not many without violence on the run-up, I'll grant you, but in many cases, the actual process of independence was performed entirely legally.

Saying that India got her independence legally is quite a stretch. There were plenty of mutinies, bloodshed, violent and non-violent movements before the British (massively weakened by the WWII) decided that they had enough. While it is true that India did not declare unilaterally declare independence (some leaders did, but they did not gain widespread public support) and start a civil war, the independence movement itself was not legal and most leaders were branded terrorists and incarcerated.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#372

Post by narag »

felipeko wrote: post #322
alvatar wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A colony of Spain? What is that based on?

The definition of the word colony From google: > a country or area under the full or partial political control of another country, typically a distant one, and occupied by settlers from that country. From wikipedia: > In politics and history, a colony is a territory under the immediate political control of a state, distinct from the home territory of the sovereign. If Spain asserts itself as the ruler of Catalonia, w…

Except not one of the requirements is meet: Catalonia is part of Spain since Spain was created with the marriage of the Reyes Católicos. Catalonia is not another country, is just a part of the same country, in the same peninsula as the most part of Spain, is not occupied, hasn't been independent ever... Also it's one of the richest regions of Spain, demanding just to avoid to support with taxes to poorer regions.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#373

Post by mixmastamyk »

carlosrg wrote: post #306
johnnyfaehell wrote: post #29

From my not so knowledgeable point of view we have: It seems the Spanish government messed up massively here. Instead of embracing a referendum about independence they decided to flatly declare it illegal and attempt to ignore the problem. If they initially embraced the referendum they could have won, I believe that a Yes vote to independence nearly always ends up failing. But instead what happened is, they blankly d…

A government doesn't declare things "illegal", judges are the ones that do it. According to our constitution, Spain is not divisible, plus regions can't decide something like that in a referendum because national sovereignty belongs to all Spanish citizens. I.e. regions aren't sovereign. Same as most if not all federal governments out there, by the way.

Sounds illegitimate to me.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#374

Post by [deleted] »

narag wrote: post #253
smcl wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The thing is people, even in Catalonia don't want independence" - in your opinion perhaps. Many others have a different opinion. But this is something that could easily be settled by ... a vote on independence.

Last election had a majority of votes to parties that didn't proposed independence, that's a hard fact, not an opinion. And as you will soon learn, there is no need to settle that question, it was settled long ago.

[deleted]

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#375

Post by gonvaled »

simias wrote: post #336
Ajedi32 wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Catalunia becoming independent would have consequences throughout the country, shouldn't everybody get to vote? That's a strange argument. Should the other member states of the EU have gotten to vote on Brexit?

Brexit was made possible by article 50 of the treaty on european union[1]. This article was introduced by the treaty of Lisbon[2] which was approved by the european parliament and ratified by all EU members. So while only UK citizens got to vote on brexit the legal possibility to exit the union was actually approved by all the EU members. If there was an article in the spanish constitution that allowed for a region t…

And that is exactly the problem. A state constitution which is unable to adapt to a changing society is destined to irrelevance.

Authority emanates from people, not from papers.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#376

Post by HelloNurse »

flamedoge wrote: post #232
TallGuyShort wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> The illegality of their vote is supported by the judicial system, not political. However it came about, that's a really political situation to be in. It sounds to me like Spain has set up a legal framework in which war is the only way to leave a democracy. I'm not familiar enough with Catalonia's motive's here to judge their decision, but that's a shitty situation in which to make that decision. And to be clear, I…

How to solve voter turnout? free donuts?

Rajoy solved the problem of high voter turnout by having the federal police assault voters. Not exactly democratic.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#377

Post by alvatar »

felipeko wrote: post #322
alvatar wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A colony of Spain? What is that based on?

The definition of the word colony From google: > a country or area under the full or partial political control of another country, typically a distant one, and occupied by settlers from that country. From wikipedia: > In politics and history, a colony is a territory under the immediate political control of a state, distinct from the home territory of the sovereign. If Spain asserts itself as the ruler of Catalonia, w…

I suppose the word colony is a matter of perspective. But I have a hard time equating Catalonia to the offshore territories the Europeans considered colonies in the past (and still to some extent). Especially considering that Catalonia was part of the European collonialism as part of Spain and profited from it as well. In which point in History Catalonia exactly was that distinct territory that was invaded by Spain?

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#378

Post by logfromblammo »

Ajedi32 wrote: post #282
simias wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess the point is that given that the spanish government considered the referendum illegal, people not in favor of independence would probably not have wanted to caution it by participating. Clearly in these conditions the results can't be trusted. It's more like "90% of the people who thought the referendum was legitimate are in favor of independence". There's obviously a big selection bias. As for the question o…

> Catalunia becoming independent would have consequences throughout the country, shouldn't everybody get to vote? That's a strange argument. Should the other member states of the EU have gotten to vote on Brexit?

The people of Catalonia vote on whether they are willing to fight for their independence. The people in the rest of Spain can vote on whether they are willing to force that fight to take place.

An EU vote on Brexit would make no sense, as one or more of the countries would have to withdraw from NATO in order for a war to occur. The unlikelihood of war among NATO members is probably one of the reasons why exit procedures exist in the first place--the other notable reason being that some countries never would have joined in the first place, if they thought they would have to fight their way out.

Spain, on the other hand, has apparently never been shy about fighting Spaniards. It might be appropriate for Spain to hold a vote, but only to show Catalonia what it may be up against, and a "no" vote gives the national government a mandate to be brutal. They can, of course, be just as brutal after a "yes" vote, but the propaganda budget would be higher.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#379

Post by david927 »

spankalee wrote: post #115
hummel wrote: post #88

Spanish here, I have family and home in Catalonia. 1) You need to read history to understand the situation. But not the history of the last 100 years, but of the last 1000. Catalonia was never independent, it was part of the Kingdom of Aragon. The kingdom of Aragon and the castle kingdom allied in a dynastic way and created what is known today as Spain. There is no 2) Voting is illegal, it is not illegal to vote but…

What does the 1000 year history have to do with anything? If the people want independence now, that's all that matters.

Catalan has always been its own country -- it just hasn't had the chance to have autonomy until now.
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