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Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#211

Post by gutnor »

hummel wrote: post #88

Spanish here, I have family and home in Catalonia. 1) You need to read history to understand the situation. But not the history of the last 100 years, but of the last 1000. Catalonia was never independent, it was part of the Kingdom of Aragon. The kingdom of Aragon and the castle kingdom allied in a dynastic way and created what is known today as Spain. There is no 2) Voting is illegal, it is not illegal to vote but…

Forget 9) In the last days, Puidgemont refused to declare if he had or not declared independence. Even though he publicly called for negotiation, his refusal practically prevents the Spanish government to do just that. "Suspended Independence" was maybe the biggest egotistical move by that guy. It was pure self-preservation.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#212

Post by andrewla »

Findeton wrote: post #178

It's not true, they haven't declared independence. This is a resolution proposal, which means it's not a law and it has no legal value (I mean, not even from the point of view of a pro-independence judge/lawyer). It's a proposal asking the Catalan government to declare independence. But it's fulfilling its purpose, which is to escalate things in a political sense while maintaining the status-quo in the legal realm: i…

My understanding from these articles is that the referendum was that -- a resolution proposal. But the most recent vote (70 for, 10 against, 2 abstains, out of 135 representatives) is a direct declaration of independence.

I don't speak Spanish and I can't find any primary sources on it, but this is what all the news sources that I have seen are saying. If you have more information or citations, I'd love to see them.

Here are some sources saying it was a declaration of independence:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/10/27/spanish-governmen...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/a-day-of-fireworks-in-c...

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41771294

Also, (sigh), the twitter-based declaration from the government of Catalan itself:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/923908635520053248

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#214

Post by platz »

jerf wrote: post #172
hummel wrote: post #88

Spanish here, I have family and home in Catalonia. 1) You need to read history to understand the situation. But not the history of the last 100 years, but of the last 1000. Catalonia was never independent, it was part of the Kingdom of Aragon. The kingdom of Aragon and the castle kingdom allied in a dynastic way and created what is known today as Spain. There is no 2) Voting is illegal, it is not illegal to vote but…

"You need to read history to understand the situation." That is true if we want to analyze the question of whether or not Catalan "should" be independent from Spain, a question so murky and shot through with political philosophy, theory, and pragmatics that even two sides that stipulate all the same facts can come to different conclusions. But for what johnnyfaehell was really getting at, which is a tactical and/or s…

So then, what tactics does civilization require in order to hold together?

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#215

Post by MatthewWilkes »

alvatar wrote: post #70
MatthewWilkes wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's interesting, I was also in Barcelona last week and I saw slightly more Spanish flags than Catalan. I think the real problem is that Spain have consistently blocked a peaceful referendum. I don't believe Catalonia would vote to leave in a fair vote, but I do feel that the repressive actions of the Kingdom of Spain on this matter are the kind of thing that could justify declaring independence unilaterally.

Again, what is the repression of the Kingdom of Spain exactly? Not allowing the referendum? It was ruled illegal by the high courts. Catalonia should push for a change of that, but not blame the government for applying the Constitution.

Yes, not allowing the referendum. It was ruled illegal because the Spanish constitution does not allow secession, effectively preventing self-determination for Catalonia.

Denying people a right that's commonly understood to be fundamental to international law and then using violence to enforce it is repression in my book. Spain has consistently escalated tensions rather than offering a path to a real democratic decision. They're going to have to accept the repercussions of that decision.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#216

Post by joaomval »

eponeponepon wrote: post #187
joaomval wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many countries got independent legally?

Plenty. India, Kenya, Australia, Canada and various ex-SSRs all spring to mind. Not many without violence on the run-up, I'll grant you, but in many cases, the actual process of independence was performed entirely legally.

ex-SSRs can be a good example but ex colonies isn't a fair comparison with Catalonia

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#217

Post by kgwgk »

arturh wrote: post #168
hummel wrote: post #88

Spanish here, I have family and home in Catalonia. 1) You need to read history to understand the situation. But not the history of the last 100 years, but of the last 1000. Catalonia was never independent, it was part of the Kingdom of Aragon. The kingdom of Aragon and the castle kingdom allied in a dynastic way and created what is known today as Spain. There is no 2) Voting is illegal, it is not illegal to vote but…

Catalonia was not part of the Kingdom of Aragon, it was part of the Crown of Aragon, which is different.

Actually the southwestern part of Catalonia was part of the Kingdom of Aragon before Catalonia existed.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#218

Post by marcosscriven »

megous wrote: post #190
marcosscriven wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They can’t really claim a mandate for leaving when those who wanted to stay boycotted the vote. That said, it would have been much less divisive if a proper referendum had been sanctioned.

Politically active get to decide. I'm not sure why expect it to be otherwise.

But people didn’t because it was not a vote recognised by their own country.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#219

Post by ealexhudson »

dageshi wrote: post #183
johnnyfaehell wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The UK government did exactly that and got a no vote to the Scottish independence. The Brexit vote was full-on farce, people literally had no idea what they were voting yes to. How could they, there was no plan.

The UK public has historically been one of the most eurosceptic countries in europe and certainly the most eurosceptic in the EU. When given an actual chance to vote on the issue amazingly the British public followed through... who could possibly have seen that coming? The farce is that people who should've known that were somehow shocked by it.

Only in recent history. Post-war through to the eighties, it was pro-Europe and influential in Europe (at least, the EC, etc.)

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#220

Post by lllllll »

Zaak wrote: post #126
hummel wrote: post #88

Spanish here, I have family and home in Catalonia. 1) You need to read history to understand the situation. But not the history of the last 100 years, but of the last 1000. Catalonia was never independent, it was part of the Kingdom of Aragon. The kingdom of Aragon and the castle kingdom allied in a dynastic way and created what is known today as Spain. There is no 2) Voting is illegal, it is not illegal to vote but…

Thank you for these clarifications of the situation. It helps to hear from someone who has a personal connection to the issue.

Please keep in mind the points raised by OP are highly subjective or his/her own interpretation.
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