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How to Read the JFK Assassination Files

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Re: How to Read the JFK Assassination Files

#101

Post by timthelion »

unabridged wrote: post #90
ionised wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of British people (over 60% when polled I believe) are convinced that our Empire was a positive thing overall for the world. They tend to gloss over the uncomfortable parts. I find it the most disgusting aspect of my country and its people. Nationalism at its worst.

As horrible as they were, the British Empire probably was a positive influence on the world. Without them I doubt we would be able to have a conversation 1000s of miles away right now. The same argument can be made for the Roman Empire. Empires of the past are looked down on because they are a unified machine of violence, a center of evil we can point to and hate. Creating civilization is brutal, but the alternative…

Is civilization even good? Civilization seems to be on track to destroy everything and everyone: http://www.businessinsider.com/germany-insect-population-fly...

Re: How to Read the JFK Assassination Files

#102

Post by jimhefferon »

wallace_f wrote: post #2

Hypothetically, if a group of people was willing to go to all the trouble of breaking laws to assassinate a President, what's forcing them to be honorable in producing and releasing information implicating themselves? It seems any excitement is contingent on believing not just in the conspiracy, but also in extreme incompetence, no?

Yeah, like if burglars taped a door open and a security guard found it and instead of reporting it he untaped it and then they came back and taped it again.

Its not like in books.

Re: How to Read the JFK Assassination Files

#103

Post by dithering »

ionised wrote: post #72
irrational wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It wasn't just you. The other European colonization efforts likewise destroyed the lives of millions of people. I always get a chuckle when I see Europeans deriding the American Empire. Pot calling the kettle black much?

> I always get a chuckle when I see Europeans deriding the American Empire. Pot calling the kettle black much? Firstly, Europe is not a country, it is a continent of countries and many did not partake in colonialism. Referring to Europe as one homogenous group is one reason Americans are derided, because it is ignorant. Secondly, the US has an unhealthy superiority complex and considers itself exceptional among all o…

> Secondly, the US has an unhealthy superiority complex and considers itself exceptional among all other nations

It is an exception (I speak as a European). It was the last of the great powers, and the first to figure out that a loan is a better weapon than a gun. The American empire is qualitatively different from all European empires.

> They deride Americans because they are in fact engaging in colonial-type practices today, despite the lessons of the past.

Don't kid yourself that Europeans just happened to learn how immoral empire is at the exact moment their empires fell apart. It's more like the Americans figured out (lucked into?) a better form of empire, and nobody could compete with their first-mover advantage.

We'll see if China can outcompete America at its own game, I guess.

Re: How to Read the JFK Assassination Files

#104

Post by wavefunction »

psergeant wrote: post #47
narrator wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's lucky the American Revolution happened in 1776 before the British had all that industrial might to suppress rebellions that they used in the Boer war and their other brutal colonial repressions.

It gave the Americans the chance to use it on the native Americans. The first concentration camps were American, not British.

The Romans beat the Americans to the punch by millennia.

Re: How to Read the JFK Assassination Files

#105

Post by agumonkey »

notzorbo3 wrote: post #88
agumonkey wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

off-topic opportunity: should history be taught in school ? it's a weird blend of nationalist myth, folklore, ignorant (or not) lies and revisionnism. ps: people I didn't mean to stay ignorant, but hinting at rethinking what we're teaching. History is extremely subtle and trimmed far too much for kids (hence the bad blend I described above).

Maybe we should have our worst historical enemies write our history textbooks for us.

That's a very adversarial view of the world.

Maybe we could:

- teach our more kids and adults to be healthier - teach them to be more than physically fit (as in master of slow and/or fast sport) - teach them to be wise about society, groups and empathy - teach them to be stronger emotionally

It's probably possible to have a culture that is strong yet friendly to foreigners, traits that reinforce themselves because you don't fear.

Re: How to Read the JFK Assassination Files

#106

Post by ionised »

unabridged wrote: post #90
ionised wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of British people (over 60% when polled I believe) are convinced that our Empire was a positive thing overall for the world. They tend to gloss over the uncomfortable parts. I find it the most disgusting aspect of my country and its people. Nationalism at its worst.

As horrible as they were, the British Empire probably was a positive influence on the world. Without them I doubt we would be able to have a conversation 1000s of miles away right now. The same argument can be made for the Roman Empire. Empires of the past are looked down on because they are a unified machine of violence, a center of evil we can point to and hate. Creating civilization is brutal, but the alternative…

This sounds very much like the 'white man's burden' of having a moral obligation to 'civilise savages'.

Re: How to Read the JFK Assassination Files

#107

Post by tadhgf »

jwdunne wrote: post #34
smnrchrds wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On a similar note, most Iranians blame the British, who were occupying the country at the time, for the Persian famine of 1917–1919. It is by some accounts estimated that up to half the population died in the famine, while the British were using the agricultural output for their war efforts and enacting policies that made the situation worse. Its portrayal in Iran is like a more aggravated version of the Irish famine…

This isn't a stretch to believe. I'm British too. We did something similar with India. We also allowed the Irish famine to happen too. History does say we were not a very kind empire - causing famine was not beyond us.

I would say the British did more than just allow the famine to happen. Exporting grain from Ireland during the famine caused the deaths of thousands. http://ighm.org/exports-in-famine-times/

Re: How to Read the JFK Assassination Files

#108

Post by dontlikeitupem »

ionised wrote: post #106
unabridged wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As horrible as they were, the British Empire probably was a positive influence on the world. Without them I doubt we would be able to have a conversation 1000s of miles away right now. The same argument can be made for the Roman Empire. Empires of the past are looked down on because they are a unified machine of violence, a center of evil we can point to and hate. Creating civilization is brutal, but the alternative…

This sounds very much like the 'white man's burden' of having a moral obligation to 'civilise savages'.

Isn't it? Should we have allowed the Indians to call on such savage practice as suttee? One of the greater horrors of post colonial sub continent africa is how little education reached the populace and the savage beliefs that perpetuate atrocities even now. Imagine if we had been able to teach them that they didn't need to kill and mutilate albinos for example?

Re: How to Read the JFK Assassination Files

#109

Post by willyt »

satya71 wrote: post #36
jwdunne wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't a stretch to believe. I'm British too. We did something similar with India. We also allowed the Irish famine to happen too. History does say we were not a very kind empire - causing famine was not beyond us.

I was under the impression that British schools still teach that colonies actually benefited from British occupation. Looks like you went out of the way to learn the reality. Kudos!

When I studied history, quite a few British schools didn’t teach history as a timeline it was more like a series of case studies, which were designed to help you understand primacy of sources and how to analyse information. I studied History of Medicine, the Blitz in my local area, Bloody Sunday in Northern Ireland, the Plains Indians in the US. So, for me, colonialism would have only come up as part of the discussion of the context for Bloody Sunday.

Re: How to Read the JFK Assassination Files

#110

Post by hiram112 »

notzorbo3 wrote: post #87
wallace_f wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just a thought: growing up I had moved around the country a bit, and perhaps this led me to be introduced to wildly different ideas about history. For example, I was taught both the States Rights and the Slavery motives of the civil war, in both primary school and in Uni! Another: My history texts taught me to be once quite strongly of the belief that the atomic bombings of Japan were necessary, and even saved lives,…

> My history texts taught me to be once quite strongly of the belief that the atomic bombings of Japan were necessary, and even saved lives So that's where that attitude / excuse comes from whenever I talk to americans about the bombings of Japan?! Is that literally taught in history classes? It always seemed to me like a statement made by an indoctrinated mind. It was nuclear bombs used on civilians in two densely p…

The typical narrative is that millions of American and Japanese lives would have been lost fighting for the home islands. The Japanese were pretty intent on dying for the cause if their leadership chose to do so.

The bit left out in most history books is the fact that the atomic bomb was used not to destroy Japanese cities but instead to demonstrate to the Soviets, who by an earlier treaty, had declared war on Japan and were invading from the North, that the US could oppose them in both Japan and Europe.

The US didn't really need to use atomic weapons for any tactical reason. Fire bombing had already proven that a city could be wiped out with traditional ordinance.

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