Live data from Hacker News

Massachusetts is considering leaving the Eastern Time Zone

aol.com

141–150 of 221 posts

Re: Massachusetts is considering leaving the Eastern Time Zone

#141
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that middle/high school is arguably starting too early (especially since research has shown, I believe, that teens really should be sleeping later). In the case of elementary school, though, you are dealing with kids young enough that they probably cannot reliably be counted on the get ready and leave for school on their own, and so you need to fit school times in with their parent's work schedule.

Middle/high does start too early, but if you started later, there wouldn't been enough time after school for those precious athletic team practices and games.

I went to school in the 90s-aughts in a school district where the median household income was ~15% below the national average. The rationale I always heard for the 7:45am high school start time was that some teenagers needed to work after school jobs to help support their families, and if school ended too late they would just drop out.

I know live in a wealthy school district (with very good athletic programs) and high school starts at 9am.

In both places at least some of the athletic/band programs started before school.

Just an anecdote though, I never heard that rationale from an official source.

Re: Massachusetts is considering leaving the Eastern Time Zone

#142
post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your sunrise wouldn't be exactly 6AM (or 7AM or whatever), it would be between 6-7 depending on where you are in the time zone.

Sure. We have that now. But it also wouldn't be the same along the same longitude. Yes, 6AM would be the same, but now sunrise, midday, and sunset would all vary. At least with noon-based time zones, midday occurs at the same time along longitudes. People have an expectation that noon occurs midday, which is why the system is set up the way it is. This is how it was before we had time zones. It's a human-interface th…

Intuition depends on experience and context.

My guess is that what is intuitive for time keeping has changed over time (no pun intended). Consider back when most people were living directly or nearly directly off the land in single families or small groups, working very hard to grow enough food or catch enough fish or game to keep alive.

I think that they would use three references for time: sunrise, noon, and sunset. Sunrise would be the main one, because that marks the time when the dangers of the night go away, and your domestic animals wake up, and you have light to start working your fields or hunting your game. I think noon would mostly simply be used for pacing--it marks when you have used up half of your daylight, and so is a good time to judge if you are working at a good pace or need to pick it up for the rest of the day.

For such a person, if they had a use for a clock at all, a sunrise synced clock would be intuitive because it would put the things they do at relatively fixed clock times each day. For example, if it takes you about four hours working the fields each morning to get hungry enough to need a lunch break, then on a sunrise clock that has you starting in the fields at 8 AM everyday, you are coming back to the house for lunch at 12 PM every day.

On a noon-based clock, you would be starting in the fields at a different time each day, and so if you came in after four hours you would be arriving back at the house expecting lunch at a different time each day.

For people at that "barely making it off the land" stage, pretty much everything they might need timekeeping for is tied to sunrise or sunset in a similar way so those are the intuitive references for time.

It's not until you get a large enough and diverse enough society that you have people doing significant things that are not directly tied to just staying alive off of the land, and doing things that involve synchronizing with people who are traveling a long way, that noon-based starts to make a lot of sense.

As settlements become bigger and bigger and more specialized, the dark becomes less dangerous, more work is done indoors by candle light or lantern light, and syncing to the sun becomes less and less important. More and more of our time is dictated by the clock and noon-based makes even more sense because it is clock friendly.

But now we've reached a point where we have enough leisure time that we actually do want some sun synchronization. We want to go to work earlier in the summer, when the sun rises earlier, so that we'll more time for play in the sunlight after work.

The most obvious way to do that would be to change work hours. Normal offices hours would change to 8 to 4 for the summer from the normal 9 to 5, and we would not fiddle with the clocks.

I suppose this was not done because it require too many people to act. Instead we diddle the clocks, so the clock says you are starting work at 9 in the summer, but it is astronomically an hour earlier than the time you started work the rest of the year.

What I'm suggesting in my earlier comment is that now that clocks are actually computers that can do quite sophisticated calculation, we could use a psuedo-sunrise based time has both the daylight maximizing property of daylight savings time and has the reproducibility and consistency of noon-based.

You can think of it as a kind of continuous or near-continuous daylight savings time, where instead of adjusting the clock with a big jump twice a year, it is adjusted either continuously or in a small step every day.

Re: Massachusetts is considering leaving the Eastern Time Zone

#143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

8:25 is the shortest day in Seattle (a tad north of the 47th), which is further north than anywhere else that isn't in WA (except for that little piece of MN). That's being nit-picky, though, as the practical outcome is that anything less than nine hours means you'll go to work in the dark and come home in the dark.

> which is further north than anywhere else that isn't in WA (except for that little piece of MN). Alaska?

The implication earlier in the thread was the continental U. S. But if you want to go the out-of-context route, you should have chosen “terrestrial north pole”.

Re: Massachusetts is considering leaving the Eastern Time Zone

#144
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, in English, you can't say "16 o'clock", can you? You can only say "sixteen hundred hours" (which sounds terrible, if you ask me).

> Well, in English, you can't say "16 o'clock", can you? You can only say "sixteen hundred hours" What's stopping you?

Nothing, get enough people saying it and it will become the thing.

I'd vote for sixteen hour or something similar.

Re: Massachusetts is considering leaving the Eastern Time Zone

#145
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that middle/high school is arguably starting too early (especially since research has shown, I believe, that teens really should be sleeping later). In the case of elementary school, though, you are dealing with kids young enough that they probably cannot reliably be counted on the get ready and leave for school on their own, and so you need to fit school times in with their parent's work schedule.

Middle/high does start too early, but if you started later, there wouldn't been enough time after school for those precious athletic team practices and games.

There's certainly an option to make the school day shorter. I seem to remember a lot of dead time in my classroom days.

Re: Massachusetts is considering leaving the Eastern Time Zone

#146
post #142
post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure. We have that now. But it also wouldn't be the same along the same longitude. Yes, 6AM would be the same, but now sunrise, midday, and sunset would all vary. At least with noon-based time zones, midday occurs at the same time along longitudes. People have an expectation that noon occurs midday, which is why the system is set up the way it is. This is how it was before we had time zones. It's a human-interface th…

Intuition depends on experience and context. My guess is that what is intuitive for time keeping has changed over time (no pun intended). Consider back when most people were living directly or nearly directly off the land in single families or small groups, working very hard to grow enough food or catch enough fish or game to keep alive. I think that they would use three references for time: sunrise, noon, and sunset…

I appreciate the time and thought you put into this. I've written elsewhere about this (some in comments on this submission), but rather than again poorly transcribe my thoughts, I'll link to the best summary I've found (also linked elsewhere in this thread):

https://qntm.org/abolish

I certainly appreciate the desire to utilize sunlight. I've spent the plurality of my life north of 45°N, and boy is it getting dark now!

Edit to add: Just discovered that the same site has a piece on continuous time zones, which is pretty much what you're proposing: https://qntm.org/continuous

Re: Massachusetts is considering leaving the Eastern Time Zone

#147

The sun sets around 4 in the winter even in Philadelphia. This would imply that basically all of New England should move to Atlantic Time.

Philadelphia is not in New England. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_England

Also the article says Massachusetts wouldn't do it without the rest of New England also joining:

> A majority of other states in New England would have to jump on the time-zone train, too.

Edit: Must have been downvoted by west coasters who don't know what new england is ...

Re: Massachusetts is considering leaving the Eastern Time Zone

#148
post #8

Maine is tentatively on-board: http://www.pressherald.com/2017/04/27/maine-may-switch-to-at... New Hampshire looks to be against it so far: http://www.concordmonitor.com/time-zone-change-atlantic-9808...

New Hampshire is usually against anything liberal Massachusetts proposes. They have a massive inferiority complex up their despite basically being dependent on Massachusetts for work.

Re: Massachusetts is considering leaving the Eastern Time Zone

#149
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All of the arguments seem to assume you have today's current tools and knowledge at your disposal, just with timezones abolished. This is clearly not what would happen. The real answer to "What time is it there?" without timezones would be the same exact thing, you google "what time of day is 4:25 in australia?" and google would tell you something like, "it's equivalent to 8:00 where you are"

Haven't you just then re-created time zones?

Yes, but with none of the inconsistencies.

Re: Massachusetts is considering leaving the Eastern Time Zone

#150
post #78
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Arizona doesn't participate in daylight savings time. And, we really don't need to be saving any daylight in Arizona.

Most of Arizona doesn’t participate in DST [1]. [1] “Daylight Savings Time explained”, CGP Gray. https://youtu.be/84aWtseb2-4 . Skip to the 5 minute mark for Arizona.

Is Navajo Nation technically in Arizona, though?
Post reply on HN