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Many junior scientists need to take a hard look at their job prospects

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241–250 of 292 posts

Re: Many junior scientists need to take a hard look at their job prospects

#241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ... you work 80 hours per week and make less than ... I've read so many comments like yours, on HN and elsewhere, and invariably the argument hinges on some variation of the above sentiment. I've come to believe I just have fundamentally different values than the vast majority of people who work in industry. To answer your (friends') question, because the work is more interesting and I make plenty of money as it st…

>I've read so many comments like yours, on HN and elsewhere, and invariably the argument hinges on some variation of the above sentiment. I've come to believe I just have fundamentally different values than the vast majority of people who work in industry. Indeed! Why is the assumption always, "We all value money, so just switch to industry!"? It's like telling a public servant that if they wanted a living wage they'…

I am going to re-read your post until I have thoroughly have it committed to memory. Yours is the verbiage that I have wanted to use in conversations so many times when the end discussion equals 'we'll all be web devs at some point'. The end product of these conversations always made my brain itch; I knew why, just couldn't formulate a reasonably worded response. I will adopt yours gladly.

Re: Many junior scientists need to take a hard look at their job prospects

#242

The longer students stay in a PhD program, the less likely they want to be professors. Typically many first year students say this, but the numbers quickly drop off in later years. When I was a PhD student, I gave a few talks and blogged about this issue. I would present all these statistics in my talks about what they needed to do to be competitive, and people just absolutely hated me for it. One person said she wan…

As someone thinking about pursuing a PhD to ultimately become a professor, can you link me to your talks or blog posts on the subject of what's required to be competitive?

I can give you my anecdotal perspective.

Out of the 18 in my cohort, two are doing reasonable postdocs (i.e. positions that aren't just treading water, but should actually lead to a reasonable career) and one who has been remarkably successful (success being a 'young investigator' grant - basically an R1 - and just recently another million+, within two years of PhD). The rest (including me) are doing ... other stuff.

Here are some traits of the successful PhD:

* Mother is professor in a related-ish field. Sister is also a PI of a gov't lab. Has been steeped in research and academia (especially the interpersonal aspects of this!) for decades. His success is 100% merited, but without question this has aided him tremendously.

* Reads papers constantly. I don't know anyone that's as familiar with the literature as he is, including all the faculty I've gotten to know. Has strong opinions about various labs, papers, and researchers, all of which are very well substantiated. TONS of 'soft' knowledge about how so-and-so got this or that funding, why such-and-such research is bunk, etc. If you don't think half the faculty in your doctoral program are trash, you're not being critical.

* Not a terribly great bench scientist. Definitely competent, but not remarkable. He knows it, though.

* Holds many unpopular opinions, and strategically focuses his research goals on the 'achievable'. In other words, he doesn't let being right get in the way of his career. Don't interpret this overly cynically; you can absolutely go against the flow in academia, but big claims require big evidence, and your time is limited. His research focus has shifted a lot depending on the landscape in front of him. I think this is commendable, as idealism in research is extremely fraught, even if some would criticize this. FWIW, he published a 'comment' in science that basically shits all over a garbage paper, which is more than most will do.

* 10 'real' publications since starting PhD in 2010, 7 as first author. By this I mean actual original research in a journal of repute, not reviews or bottom-tier trash. And this covers what are easily considered 3 different topics/fields.

* PhD advisor is Academy member, post-doc advisor is Academy member, institution is top-3 in field, arguably 1 or 2, etc.

The core takeaway is that you need to understand your field (in a very wide sense of the term) and direct your research productively according to that.

You certainly don't need all that to become a professor at Podunk-U, but I think that's a good archetype for a successful investigator. The other successful PhD (different cohort) I know has a very similar story; dad is a 'big dog' in an even more similar field as the son, similarly productive, similarly knowledgeable, etc. I feel pretty confident that this is what's needed for success at a major research university. Though, many unsuccessful faculty will be hired as well (through luck and, very often, nepotism), so YMMV.

If you really like to read papers in your free time, I think that's a very good sign. Even better if what you like best is to read between the lines and really be critical of the work. Very few people, even in doctoral programs, are like this. Know and respect your weaknesses, as well, and you could be great.

Re: Many junior scientists need to take a hard look at their job prospects

#243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know about theoretical physics, but math professors usually have almost no burden to produce grant money. My observation is the same - they are very relaxed. In my school, the physics department was part of the College of Engineering. They had the usual 80 hour weeks because their evaluations depended on the amount of grant money they brought in.

This is related to the cost of doing experiments and running a lab. My wife is a bio-physicist and goes through $1k is supplies on a good day. In contrast you could run a math lab on almost nothing.

>This is related to the cost of doing experiments and running a lab.

Only tangentially. In my engineering department, the expectations on the professor who ran a lab with heavy and expensive equipment were no greater than the one whose work was all computational and just needed a bunch of PC's to run simulations on.

Re: Many junior scientists need to take a hard look at their job prospects

#244

When deciding to do my PhD I did so under the assumption that I wouldn't work in academia afterward. I evaluated it like a any other job offer at the time and decided that the tax free pay, coupled with the freedom to run my project how I wanted and work on what I wanted (within reason) for a fixed period of time was a better offer than a grad scheme with BAE, Nissan, Seimens etc. Doing a PhD built a large array of s…

I don't think a PhD is only valuable for a career in academia I thought it was pretty well established that this depends heavily on your field.

Depends on your definition of “valuable”

Re: Many junior scientists need to take a hard look at their job prospects

#245
post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Teaching is a distraction to the real work that goes on in universities. This is the most concise statement I've ever seen of the sickness at the heart of the academy. By and large, and with a few heroic exceptions, professors don't value instruction. It's why I was told my ambition to improve the preparation of engineering graduates through better instruction was a fool's errand, "career suicide" in my advisor's w…

Your adviser was right though. If there was an infinite amount of money then they'd have lecturers who are dedicated to lecturing. But there is never enough money so...what options are there but to do the things that will bring more in so that your role/group/department/university survives. I've seen it myself...groups whither and disappear due to lack of funds.

I can easily accept it in some European country where government pays for it all. I have much harder time to accept this paradigm in USA, where 19 years old are paying a lot of money or going into debt just so they can study at the university.

Yes, college graduates do better then non college graduates which is why those people still do it. But since they are paying a lot of money, university literally owns them more then just "you are a distraction".

Re: Many junior scientists need to take a hard look at their job prospects

#246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ... you work 80 hours per week and make less than ... I've read so many comments like yours, on HN and elsewhere, and invariably the argument hinges on some variation of the above sentiment. I've come to believe I just have fundamentally different values than the vast majority of people who work in industry. To answer your (friends') question, because the work is more interesting and I make plenty of money as it st…

I met an amateur comedian recently who mentioned he's almost done with his PhD, but will never make back the lost earnings from the time he's invested. Whilst he talked, part of me was thinking 'man, if only your PhD were in machine learning'. I didn't say it out loud, though. It turned out he's about to complete a PhD in machine learning, but doesn't want to work in Silicon Valley, or for a big company, or in financ…

Maybe a better advisor would have helped them find a research topic that engaged them? I really didn't care much about traffic. I cared about Chaos Theory and MDOT had free traffic data and DEC was willing to loan me some hardware. That's it.

I mean, I like traffic now. Back then? I was just meh... But it was something I could bite into and really see where Chaos Theory techniques could apply to understanding traffic. Which is to say, quite well - actually. But, I digress...

A great advisor really, really helps.

Re: Many junior scientists need to take a hard look at their job prospects

#247
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is basically the same thing I did, except that I worked as a programmer at a startup before going back to school for a PhD. It was better than doing a startup by a stupidly huge margin. Startups are all about risk-minimization and risk-mitigation, since risky things mostly fail, and so use up your runway without moving you closer to success. So in a startup you are highly incentivized not to take big risks -- an…

>In contrast, after my first project as a PhD student, my advisor straight-up told me that I needed to shed the engineering mindset to succeed. Inventing new techniques was the goal, and so you need to adopt a mentality of confronting problems head on (rather than designing the system to avoid confronting them). That sounds heavenly.

If you have the mindset for this type of work, then a PhD is an amazing experience. There are only a select few places that give you that much freedom.

If you don't have this mindset, a PhD will make you very angry, and you'll feel like you've wasted several years of your life.

Re: Many junior scientists need to take a hard look at their job prospects

#248
post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Teaching is a distraction to the real work that goes on in universities. This is the most concise statement I've ever seen of the sickness at the heart of the academy. By and large, and with a few heroic exceptions, professors don't value instruction. It's why I was told my ambition to improve the preparation of engineering graduates through better instruction was a fool's errand, "career suicide" in my advisor's w…

Your adviser was right though. If there was an infinite amount of money then they'd have lecturers who are dedicated to lecturing. But there is never enough money so...what options are there but to do the things that will bring more in so that your role/group/department/university survives. I've seen it myself...groups whither and disappear due to lack of funds.

Do undergraduate fees contribute to a faculty's research funding? And if not why are student fees so high, if there is such a low (albeit understandable) emphasis on undergraduate teaching?

Re: Many junior scientists need to take a hard look at their job prospects

#249
post #245
post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your adviser was right though. If there was an infinite amount of money then they'd have lecturers who are dedicated to lecturing. But there is never enough money so...what options are there but to do the things that will bring more in so that your role/group/department/university survives. I've seen it myself...groups whither and disappear due to lack of funds.

I can easily accept it in some European country where government pays for it all. I have much harder time to accept this paradigm in USA, where 19 years old are paying a lot of money or going into debt just so they can study at the university. Yes, college graduates do better then non college graduates which is why those people still do it. But since they are paying a lot of money, university literally owns them more…

> where 19 years old are paying a lot of money or going into debt just so they can study at the university.

True enough. My Euro-centric brain didn't consider this. Even in Europe actually, non-European students pay a lot to join a course.

My sense is that American unis do offer some "value for money" when compared to European schools, through flexible options for minors and majors, and grad school. Maybe the teachers are still poor though.

Re: Many junior scientists need to take a hard look at their job prospects

#250

The growth area seems to be academic administration. As I pointed out previously, Stanford is building a new "campus" in Redwood City.[1] It's all administrators. 2700 of them. More administrators than Stanford has faculty. "School of Medicine administration; Stanford Libraries and University Archives; the major administrative units of Business Affairs; Land, Buildings and Real Estate; University Human Resources; Res…

Wow... 16,000 students, 2,100 faculty, and 12,100 admin.

If you need evidence that we're in a college/university bubble, that's a pretty good indicator.

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