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Rising Rents Are Pushing More Tenants Past the Breaking Point

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Re: Rising Rents Are Pushing More Tenants Past the Breaking Point

#141
post #9

Rent is an amazingly effective means of redistributing wealth upwards. I have easily paid over £100k rent in my life, always to people substantially richer than I am. Always enjoyed this Churchill quote - from 1909! Roads are made, streets are made, services are improved, electric light turns night into day, water is brought from reservoirs a hundred miles off in the mountains -- and all the while the landlord sits s…

So what's your point? Do you want to eliminate rent? Should people who either can't afford to purchase a house, or who simply don't want to, be forced into homelessness? Personally I've paid over $115,000 in rent over the past 12 years, but I don't begrudge my landlord their money. I attained utility in exchange for the rent I paid, and have no problem with the arrangement. Not, of course, to say that I'm happy when…

Allow people to deduct rents paid from their income taxes if they report the location of the property and the identity of the party receiving the payments (in addition to the standard deduction).

Tax income from rents at a higher rate than wage and salary incomes.

The landlords will obviously just raise rents to pay the tax, but this allows you to gather data on who owns/manages all the rental properties, which are the sort of data you need to determine if rents or absentee-landlordism is even a problem anywhere.

In response to the parent, the landlord is not providing housing. The people who live in the housing provide the demand for housing. The home construction industry provide new supply, and owners of existing housing stocks may be enticed to sell once their price point is reached. A landlord that buys a house with the intention to rent to someone else is acting as a middleman. If they did not bid up the price of that particular house, the price might have remained low enough for someone who intended to live in it to buy it.

So what the landlord actually provides is the ability to buy a small interval of living in a home, rather than having to buy all the years of living there--from now until the fall of civilization--all at once. Mortgages are a different sort of middleman. They provide the ability to spread out that payment for all the remaining years over a fixed number of years. But the interest on a home mortgage is mostly just another form of rent-seeking. Without the availability of the mortgages, the houses would have to sell at lower prices, to those who could afford to pay for them.

The problem, if there is one, is not that rent-seekers take rents, but that they do not spend those rents close enough to the people who give them for them to easily earn them back. If you rent out the loft above your garage to a single student, you're likely to spend some of that money at the restaurant where they bus tables part-time. That money circulates back through the local community. If you live in St. Louis and own a 3/2 in Tulsa, maybe the customer support line of the juice press you bought runs its call center out of there. That money leaves faster than it comes back. And if your retirement plan owns part of a REIT that owns rental property all over, and also has a bit invested in Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae, that's basically a diffuse sucking of money out of the entire rest of the country to feed a diffuse scattering of investors that don't necessarily live anywhere near the sources. The circulation loop is totally broken. People stand at the nexus ("Wall Street") and skim off the top, then don't spend that money back into the communities where the rents come from.

This is how an Appalachian ex-miner family can rent a drafty barn with no furniture for $300 a month, and not see any local jobs available to recirculate that money back to them. The owner doesn't live there, or spend money there, or even spare a single thought when their plane flies overhead. The only reason they own the barn is to extract the Social Security Disability money that flies in from Washington, DC, briefly touches earth, and then immediately flies away to a community where people own things for their living.

Something like a Georgist land-value tax does not meaningfully distinguish between a landlord that lives next door and spends all their rent locally and one that lives 12 time zones away and spends it all to people much more distant on the money-circulation graph. Perhaps it would be more appropriate to tax rents based on the distance between the beneficial owner's legal domicile and the property? Composite entities like corporations and partnerships would then have to report their domicile and distance calculations for distributions and dividends though. Seems like a mess for reporting.

Re: Rising Rents Are Pushing More Tenants Past the Breaking Point

#142
post #90
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't eliminate all rent, just tax away the rents derived from the land itself. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgism

In California at least, the property tax bill is already split into two components: 1.) Tax on land value 2.) Tax on improvements (building, landscaping) so Georgism already exists somewhat. An land value tax increase would need to be phased over decades to account for the building lifetimes which can span 50 or more years. Developers use multi-decode economic models for their developments based on assumptions includ…

My property tax bill in California does have the breakdown of the land value and improvements, but they are just added together and a single rate is applied to the total (~%1.3 in my case). So one could implement Georgism pretty easily, by just taxing the land value, but that is not how it works at the moment.

Re: Rising Rents Are Pushing More Tenants Past the Breaking Point

#143
post #9

Rent is an amazingly effective means of redistributing wealth upwards. I have easily paid over £100k rent in my life, always to people substantially richer than I am. Always enjoyed this Churchill quote - from 1909! Roads are made, streets are made, services are improved, electric light turns night into day, water is brought from reservoirs a hundred miles off in the mountains -- and all the while the landlord sits s…

Yes, but you need to realize that land plays a crucial role in our environment and rich people are in a better position to utilize resources with attention to environment than poor people. All the zoning laws that make rents high are actually good for environment and help us fight climate change.

Re: Rising Rents Are Pushing More Tenants Past the Breaking Point

#144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, no one is advocating for eliminating rent. I (EDIT: removed "We") am advocating for tilting the scales back towards labor though. * No depreciation allowance on rental property that is almost always going to appreciate [1] * No 1031 exchanges, deferring capital gains forever [2] * No mortgage interest deduction, which encourages the wealthy to bid up real estate since their leverage is tax advantaged. [3] * Co-Op…

Fair enough! Coops acquiring property for renting to citizens when possible Yes, this sounds like a good idea. As a Libertarian, I like this model because it is compatible with private property rights, and doesn't demand some sort of government intervention.

You don't think property coops are at a high risk of acting like current HOAs?

Re: Rising Rents Are Pushing More Tenants Past the Breaking Point

#145
post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is distinct from a property tax in that it only measures the value of the soil it sits on, so doesn't punish the landlord for improvements. The value of the land itself is almost entirely outside of the landlord's control, it's determined by the community around it. As a result, this is one of the least distortive taxes. When land value is taxed at a higher rate than property value, it creates a perverse incen…

How have all the economists missed this obvious point? Murder also hurts property values. Fortunately, we have the ability to create laws to punish destructive behavior. Why would a landlord destroy the value of their own property, harming their own ability to draw rent?

> How have all the economists missed this obvious point?

They haven't. That's why taxing land value at a higher rate than property values doesn't have support from mainstream economists.

> Murder also hurts property values. Fortunately, we have the ability to create laws to punish destructive behavior.

Murder is a lot easier to identify and prosecute than blighting. We already have laws against blighting. They don't seem to work. Increasing the incentive to blight is unlikely to make blighting less attractive.

> Why would a landlord destroy the value of their own property, harming their own ability to draw rent?

You're missing the point. They wouldn't destroy the value of their property; they'd extract value from the land (and neighboring land) to build up the value of their property. Land-value taxes encourage consolidating wealth in improvements to private property that have zero impact on anybody other than the property owner (or tenant). That's the exact opposite of the desired outcome, because it clearly works against the public benefit.

There are plenty of areas where this already happens, because there's enough of an incentive for property owners to do this even without skewing the tax code specifically to reward them for this behavior.

Re: Rising Rents Are Pushing More Tenants Past the Breaking Point

#146
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is that the landlord becomes wealthier through improvements to the area, for which s/he is not responsible. i.e. they are capturing public investment. Put concretely, my taxes go towards upgrading the Overground Line which improves the area I live in which increases my rent. I have paid for this improvement twice, my landlord, zero times (their get back their taxes through uplift in property value). Solutio…

The landlord has to pay higher property taxes as their property becomes more valuable, which often go in turn to paying for those improvements. It's not a one-way transfer, there's a quid pro quo. Now you may argue landlords get more than they give, but that's an entirely different point.

True in most places. California's prop 13 caps property value increases for tax purposes to 2% per year. This includes land held by corporations, not just grandma.

Re: Rising Rents Are Pushing More Tenants Past the Breaking Point

#147
post #9

Rent is an amazingly effective means of redistributing wealth upwards. I have easily paid over £100k rent in my life, always to people substantially richer than I am. Always enjoyed this Churchill quote - from 1909! Roads are made, streets are made, services are improved, electric light turns night into day, water is brought from reservoirs a hundred miles off in the mountains -- and all the while the landlord sits s…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgism That quote is the exact reason that land needs to be taxed at a much higher rate than it's currently taxed. Notice I say "land", so that doesn't include anything built on that land. The value of land is directly tied to the desirability of the land around it. Land in Manhattan is more valuable than land in the middle of South Dakota because of all the network effects of other pe…

> That quote is the exact reason that land needs to be taxed at a much higher rate than it's currently taxed. Notice I say "land", so that doesn't include anything built on that land. > > The value of land is directly tied to the desirability of the land around it. Land in Manhattan is more valuable than land in the middle of South Dakota because of all the network effects of other people (and the government) building things in Manhattan.

I'm glad you mentioned Manhattan.

Land-value taxes encourage property owners (or aspiring property owners) to take actions to decrease the value of land, in order to make it cheaper to acquire and maintain (read: pay taxes on) that land. Those actions have significant network effects, much more so than actions that increase (or decrease) property values, by definition: the value of land is more strongly correlated with the value of neighboring land than the values of properties are.

Taken to the extreme, this will cause massively capitalized institutions to blight land - and, in some cases, even buy up land for the specific purpose of blighting it and reducing its value (thereby reducing the value of neighboring land). That results in a massive wealth transfer from the poor and middle class to wealthy institutions - namely banks and universities with large endowments, though sometimes wealthy individuals too.

I'm glad you mentioned Manhattan, because it's one place where this exact practice already happens in a very public and visible way. It happens in Manhattan even without the existence of specific tax incentives to encourage this behavior because the economics of real estate in the area (along with other aspects of real estate acquisition in NYC) make it profitable for institutions like NYU and Columbia to do this[0]. If you started taxing land at a higher value than the property that sits on the land, it would make it lucrative for "smaller" institutions (ie, other well-capitalized institutions) to start doing it as well.

[0] NYU and Columbia are two of the top three holders of real-estate in the city, by value. They have both engaged in this practice in very visible and documented ways.

Re: Rising Rents Are Pushing More Tenants Past the Breaking Point

#148
post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hot housing markets are extremely high risk high reward investments. Buying NYC real estate for example, it is practically impossible to use a traditional "buy and hold" strategy and have the rents cover the cost of investment (typically rent covers more like 50% of operating costs in NYC). You pretty much only make money in NYC REI via speculation (ie the property goes up in value) not from paying down the mortgage…

Last I heard, NYC is literally running out of pavement space for pedestrians, let alone vehicles, and increasing the supply of housing still hasn't brought prices down.

> Last I heard, NYC is literally running out of pavement space for pedestrians, let alone vehicles

That's news to me, as someone who lives and works in the two busiest and most crowded neighborhoods in the city

> and increasing the supply of housing still hasn't brought prices down.

Yes, but that's because of the way new housing has been constructed (skewed towards luxury buildings, which are purchased by foreign speculators as ways to park money essentially tax-free). That means that many of these new units that are constructed don't actually increase the supply of housing, because speculative purchasers tend not to rent out the units (it's not worth it, given their goals).

Re: Rising Rents Are Pushing More Tenants Past the Breaking Point

#149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Land Value Tax. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_value_tax This is distinct from a property tax in that it only measures the value of the soil it sits on, so doesn't punish the landlord for improvements. The value of the land itself is almost entirely outside of the landlord's control, it's determined by the community around it. As a result, this is one of the least distortive taxes.

I don't understand how a land value tax is supposed to make rents lower. It doesn't really compute. As a landlord, I have a mortgage of $X and taxes of $Y, and insurances, maintenance and other liabilities that total up to $Z, for operating costs on a piece of property. For this to make any sense at all, $Rent >= $X + Y$ + $Z. If you increase the taxes $Y (and this would, realistically, be done more or less uniformly…

I think this is "Landlords will pass on all the tax to their tenants": http://kaalvtn.blogspot.co.uk/2013/01/g-lvt-would-benefit-ri...

Re: Rising Rents Are Pushing More Tenants Past the Breaking Point

#150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You didn't challenge the statement to GP made, but one he didn't make. He didn't say that landlords are vastly richer than workers. He said that landlords make little or no contribution to the general welfare. Your own comment points out that in SF, the median landlord makes roughly what the median software developer makes. But a software developer in the Bay Area is one of the most productive workers on the planet,…

Why are landlords under some special obligation to make a contribution to the general welfare any more than a plumber is, or a software engineer? That said, surely renting a property that is unaffordable to own by the renter provides social utility though?

Because the community has agreed to honor their exclusive real property claim, even if another person might have made better use of it.

Property owners do occasionally have their property seized by the community that it may be used more appropriately to the community's desires. It may be by eminent domain, or civil forfeiture, or adverse possession, or by regulatory taking, or some other means, but it is more likely to happen to those that do not actively demonstrate value to their community (perhaps in the form of financially supporting the local lawyering economy, if nothing else) than those who do not.

It's a fact of existence from the Pauli Exclusion Principle all the way up to "wherever you go, there you are" that everything has to have a place to be. You can't have a general welfare without a place to put it, and wherever you put it has to be adjacent to other places.

So that special obligation is basically to not abuse the inevitability of adjacency and the tyranny of distance in a way that is too obviously selfish.

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