Live data from Hacker News

Many junior scientists need to take a hard look at their job prospects

nature.com

161–170 of 292 posts

Re: Many junior scientists need to take a hard look at their job prospects

#161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because one is a good scientist doesn't necessarily mean one is cut out to be a professional scientist.

I would argue the opposite is more plausible; if one is a good plumber, one is likely also a good professional plumber. I would like to see if this trend is cross disciplinary or say it is mainly within say social sciences or humanities. Personally, I have meet many university students and PhDs whose intellect at best was ordinary.

What I meant was that the skill set to become a successful professor (grantsmanship, political wheeling and dealing) is antithetical to being a good scientist.

Re: Many junior scientists need to take a hard look at their job prospects

#162
post #119
post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He wanted to work on his research and get grants not teach. Working on research that's worthy of grants is extremely taxing, and is the part that makes universities function. Teaching undergrads is a chore.

I understand but the students are the ones struggling due to an absent teacher. I’m greatful he wants to do research but jaded due to the fact he doesnt care about the class or students. My education was subpar due to his lack of effort.

Oh don't get me wrong, I'm only too aware that expertise in a field doesn't make you a good teacher. I did badly in some subjects for the same reason, I feel.

Re: Many junior scientists need to take a hard look at their job prospects

#163
post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I happen to be extremely well acquainted with one tenured professor of biological oceanography, and one tenure track professor of physical oceanography, and I can't say I agree with your observation. My experience has been that tenure or not, the amount of work that these individuals have on their plate is essentially endless. Grants are extremely difficult to come by these days, although its getting better, and it i…

> Grants are extremely difficult to come by these days Only because of competition. It's still vastly better in the U.S. than any other country. Competition is good.

To a point.

There was a retrospective study looking at grant scores vs. outcomes (citations of the papers produced). The correlation was pretty weak. Reviewers can identify the obvious dreck, but beyond that was a bit of a toss-up.

If you have too much competition, people start rushing sexy, half-baked results out the door, regardless of whether they seem likely to hold up--or even make sense. This selects against the people doing the careful sort of research that we probably intend to encourage.

Re: Many junior scientists need to take a hard look at their job prospects

#164
What about creating more private research centers? Where the benefits are not tied to individual company profits or have them hoping for patents stash. OpenAI is an example of one of such initiatives. Similar centers can be spun off more often. Does CERN have satellite labs across the world? Sure committing to funding can be a problem for private entities (companies/families/individual billionaires). Perhaps govt should these entities tax breaks for funding such centers.

Re: Many junior scientists need to take a hard look at their job prospects

#166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Grants are extremely difficult to come by these days Only because of competition. It's still vastly better in the U.S. than any other country. Competition is good.

To a point. There was a retrospective study looking at grant scores vs. outcomes (citations of the papers produced). The correlation was pretty weak. Reviewers can identify the obvious dreck, but beyond that was a bit of a toss-up. If you have too much competition, people start rushing sexy, half-baked results out the door, regardless of whether they seem likely to hold up--or even make sense. This selects against th…

Yes, competition is good.

But as you say, the incentives are not aligned correctly. And yes, it's very difficult for reviewers to make the best decisions.

So instead, they reject and request preliminary data. Which requires money. But at least this is better than a sexy shot in the dark, which I think private institutions should be funding. Or things like MD Anderson's moonshot program.

Things aren't perfect, but I think we can both agree that there is no perfect solution to this problem, incremental improvement? Certainly.

Re: Many junior scientists need to take a hard look at their job prospects

#167
post #115
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It shows who did the most work in an unambiguous way. If you have never collaborated on a paper, you'll probably think this is not important, but in reality it is. Interestingly, some fields where alphabetical order is used have started adding a note that explicitly shows who did how much work.

I think the problem is that it's really not that unambiguous. There are general rules to the order but it's not explicit, and being second author doesn't explain in any kind of detail what was done. I'm quite a fan of explicitly tagging authors for what they did. That way you avoid deciding whether the person who did the stats did "more work" than the person who did the code, etc.

Nor does it really explain how much was done: was it 90% of the first author's effort, or 9%?

It's an incredibly noisy measure that people nevertheless take seriously.

Re: Many junior scientists need to take a hard look at their job prospects

#168
post #98
post #22

Academia nowadays is a high-tech bureaucracy; you are forced to churn out documents (papers) that need to cite other documents, and you're evaluated based on your position in the inter-document citation network. Then you have to write other documents (grant proposals) to grab money to write more documents (papers) by gaming the inner mechanics of some comittee. If partner-track investment bankers are overworked, depr…

-Working for a big tech company: you're writing code to deliver more ads to more people so the company can grow and deliver even more ads to even more people -Being a truck driver: you're moving boxes around -Being a professional hockey player: you and your team are moving really fast with a disk shaped object trying to put it in a net while people try to prevent you from doing it -Being a stock trader: making money…

Tenured professor here.

You're right in some sense, although I think those other fields are different in that people are honest upfront about what you're doing, and people see the value in the tediousness.

Academics, though, reached some inflection point (not too long ago really) where papers are just published, or grants proposals are written, just so it can be put on a CV. There's a huge discrepancy between the activity and its purpose, and a lot of denial about what's going on.

The denial seems to be decreasing a little, with more and more pieces like this Nature article, but I don't think the general public really understands the nature of the problems involved, nor are scientists really often honest about the nature of scientific work today.

One issue that's missing from this article is the impact of these trends on senior academics: it makes it almost impossible to move from one institution to a next, because of the volumes of young Ph.D. grads that are available. So if you are stuck in a problem institution, or in a poor institution-fit, or your spouse needs a job elsewhere, you're f*d, to put it mildly. This then creates all sorts of problems up the chain, where you have senior people whose careers would improve if they could move, and people staying would be happier, but they can't, or it takes forever. It leads to all kinds of problematic interpersonal problems that would be resolved easily in another field by someone just moving someplace else they'd be happier at. In academics, your career is often tied to a particular institution, because of the glut of qualified graduates, which is totally screwed up.

Academics has become cannabilistic. You're expected to just sort of throw yourself and your family at the altar of "science," the meaning of which is increasingly corrupted and distorted.

Re: Many junior scientists need to take a hard look at their job prospects

#169
post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you become a tenured professor, the amount of work you do is far less than the vast majority of other jobs with a similar salary. The only real commitments are the classes you have to teach and if you minimize the amount of teaching you do, you'll barely be working at all. I knew a history professor that would come into the university for his 1 or 2 classes per week and then would go home for the rest of the day…

Teaching is a distraction to the real work that goes on in universities. Just because you don't see professors teaching, doesn't mean that they aren't working extremely hard, on very important and stressful tasks (i.e. tasks that are fundamental to the university being a viable organisation)

> Teaching is a distraction to the real work that goes on in universities.

This is the most concise statement I've ever seen of the sickness at the heart of the academy. By and large, and with a few heroic exceptions, professors don't value instruction. It's why I was told my ambition to improve the preparation of engineering graduates through better instruction was a fool's errand, "career suicide" in my advisor's words. And it's why I took my Ph.D. and left academia. This attitude is going to come back and bite them when the marks wise up.

Re: Many junior scientists need to take a hard look at their job prospects

#170

The longer students stay in a PhD program, the less likely they want to be professors. Typically many first year students say this, but the numbers quickly drop off in later years. When I was a PhD student, I gave a few talks and blogged about this issue. I would present all these statistics in my talks about what they needed to do to be competitive, and people just absolutely hated me for it. One person said she wan…

When you become a tenured professor, the amount of work you do is far less than the vast majority of other jobs with a similar salary. The only real commitments are the classes you have to teach and if you minimize the amount of teaching you do, you'll barely be working at all. I knew a history professor that would come into the university for his 1 or 2 classes per week and then would go home for the rest of the day…

measuring output of intellectual pursuits is a fool's game. that history professor may be spending all their time watching Netflix, or they might be reading and thinking and conversing with their colleagues, participating in the general intellectual milieu, without publishing anything, but still making a positive and important contribution to society.

Besides, sometimes you will pursue an idea for a year or two and find out that it comes to nothing, and you have very little to show for it. But not giving professors the space and trust to do just that is counterproductive in the long run.

Post reply on HN