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If you care about diversity, don't just hire from the same five schools

blog.interviewing.io

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Re: If you care about diversity, don't just hire from the same five schools

#482
post #61

If jobs were screened entirely by competency and personality/fit, with interviews/resumes somehow conveying those aspects of a candidate without any other identifying information revealed about the applicants (no school, age, sex, name, ethnicity, etc), how different would the end result of hiring be? That would make for an interesting study in a variety of industries and fields, if one hasn't been done already.

That's what were trying to achieve at Vervoe. Our hiring software is designed to assess candidates primarily via task-based simulations created by experts - that means interview questions that help the Employer assess your skill and judge the candidates based on their answers mostly.

When I myself was hired by Vervoe, I didn't submit any resume, because as our CEO says, resumes are documents about past and don't necessarily show how the candidate will perform now and in future. I only submitted the skill assessing questions. My school (I have none), age, sex, ethnicity, location didn't matter.

I am glad that articles and comments like this exist, shows we're not alone on our mission to show that diversity works better :).

Re: If you care about diversity, don't just hire from the same five schools

#483

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That article doesn't list one concrete example of how being a straight white male actually made life easier for him. I can and have listed several major, specific ways in which it's the opposite. I hate to use the T-word but this sort of non-argument you've just presented is exactly why Trump won. It's just racist, sexist self-loathing based on nothing whatsoever. If there was something, that guy would have listed a…

> [something] is exactly why Trump won No. Trump won through the gutting of the Voting Rights Act, rampant GOP gerrymandering, a terrifyingly complicit and supine media, an institutionally racist and sexist country backlashing to Obama, and an electoral system that vastly overpowers the majority white (and racist) Southern states.

The supine and complicit media came out near 100% in support of Hillary, perhaps due to her massive campaign spending.

Regardless, I think when your explanation is "the entire USA is racist and sexist" you are - again - making my point for me. I know lots of Americans and I've never seen a shred of racism or sexism in any of them. But if you constantly tell ordinary, hard working and honest people that their whole life is a fraud, that their success isn't really success, it's just "white male privilege", and you can't point out a single reason why ... guess what? They're going to get mad and start quietly voting for someone who fights back against that culture. That's what I meant and I'm sure you know it.

Re: If you care about diversity, don't just hire from the same five schools

#484

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> [something] is exactly why Trump won No. Trump won through the gutting of the Voting Rights Act, rampant GOP gerrymandering, a terrifyingly complicit and supine media, an institutionally racist and sexist country backlashing to Obama, and an electoral system that vastly overpowers the majority white (and racist) Southern states.

The supine and complicit media came out near 100% in support of Hillary, perhaps due to her massive campaign spending. Regardless, I think when your explanation is "the entire USA is racist and sexist" you are - again - making my point for me. I know lots of Americans and I've never seen a shred of racism or sexism in any of them. But if you constantly tell ordinary, hard working and honest people that their whole li…

> The supine and complicit media came out near 100% in support of Hillary

Yes, that explains the overwhelming concentration on the email "scandal" whilst ignoring literally everything that Trump said.

> I know lots of Americans and I've never seen a shred of racism or sexism in any of them.

That's ... not how it works.

> and you can't point out a single reason why ... guess what?

But the reasons are pointed out. They just get ignored because the kind of people who refuse to believe that "white male privilege" exists aren't the kind of people who listen to rational arguments.

Re: If you care about diversity, don't just hire from the same five schools

#485
post #468

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anonymous? My user can easily be googled... >> to try to preserve the argument that women are biologically inferior You clearly didn't read, because I made the argument that women are less INTERESTED, not that they are biologically inferior. Get rid of that chip on your shoulder. This is why conservatives aren't willing to discuss these issues. Because the moment I call you out on using bullshit arguments you call me…

I made the argument that women are less INTERESTED But interest is an outcome , influenced for example by the presence or absence of role models or the impression of certain fields as not welcoming to women. If I remember the state of things correctly, the gender imbalance of interest in science is not present at early ages but develops around junior high ages when kids start picking up on which jobs or fields are "a…

Influenced has two sides, negative and positive. You have to account for both when establishing a cause for an outcome.

Just the other day I heard two kids around the age 10, a boy and a girl, talk about a life as a programmer. The boy wanted to make a AI so he could become rich and the girl wanted to make a AI to help make her social life better. The answers could not be more stereotypical gender defined. Men are valued and gain social rank through the pursuit of money so thats what is being imprinted onto the boy, women for their social skills.

A world where both women and men is valued based on the same ability, that is the ability to get money, would be a world where you would have 50/50 in all professions.

Re: If you care about diversity, don't just hire from the same five schools

#486

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The supine and complicit media came out near 100% in support of Hillary, perhaps due to her massive campaign spending. Regardless, I think when your explanation is "the entire USA is racist and sexist" you are - again - making my point for me. I know lots of Americans and I've never seen a shred of racism or sexism in any of them. But if you constantly tell ordinary, hard working and honest people that their whole li…

> The supine and complicit media came out near 100% in support of Hillary Yes, that explains the overwhelming concentration on the email "scandal" whilst ignoring literally everything that Trump said. > I know lots of Americans and I've never seen a shred of racism or sexism in any of them. That's ... not how it works. > and you can't point out a single reason why ... guess what? But the reasons are pointed out. They…

> Yes, that explains the overwhelming concentration on the email "scandal" whilst ignoring literally everything that Trump said.

It was not entirely undeserved though - the scandal was certainly newsworthy and had many unprecedented events. The Bill Clinton-Loretta Lynch tarmac meeting was highly inappropriate, leading to the eventual decision falling to James Comey. James Comey had earlier, much to the dismay of Republicans, chosen not to pursue Bill Clinton's incredibly dubious pardon of Marc Rich. When he announced that they would not seek prosecution, his reasoning was that there was plenty of negligence but no intent - an interpretation of the statute that had not been used in previous cases for which many have been convicted.

To make matters worse, Secretary Clinton fainted on September 11 at a memorial service for 9/11 and the press was nowhere to be found when it happened. A random bystander managed to get footage of her security detail awkwardly putting her into a van. This is less than 2 months before the election. The campaign response started with "overheating" and then went to pneumonia.

Over the weeks prior to this, there was an all-out media blitzkrieg dismissing rumors of her ill health as a conspiracy theory. She herself lied straight into the camera about her health, to the extent that she went on the Jimmy Kimmel show and opened a pickle jar as a gag. This was a mere 2 weeks before she passed out. Around the same time, John Podesta's leaked emails had revealed the tremendous influence the campaign seemed to have with the press, and the media in general. One could argue that this is simply "how the sausage is made" when it comes to political campaigns, but to much of the general public, this sort of insight was unprecedented. This kind of story is severely damaging to any candidate.

When the footage of her collapsing came out, it served to validate what the right leaning media had been saying all along, plus reinforced fears of mainstream media collusion revealed in the emails were not unfounded, since the left leaning media had gone to bat for her when the health stories came out, and had no cameras present during a major development in the campaign which would have hurt her perception with the voting public. This significantly undermined the perception of integrity in the media. As damage control, the media did more negative stories in the months leading up to the election.

> They just get ignored because the kind of people who refuse to believe that "white male privilege" exists aren't the kind of people who listen to rational arguments.

There is no evidence to suggest that they are being willfully ignored, nor that people are being irrational in their refusal to believe, nor does it flow logically. This privilege certainly exists in several contexts, but to generalize across an entire demographic of people is easily defeated with a large number of counter-examples. The point that the comment you replied to was trying to make, is that people like me (i.e. who have white friends who have struggled against tremendous odds to make it to where they are in life, such as people from Kosovo who escaped a warzone, as one relevant personal example of many) do not appreciate it when the success and hard work of many of the white folks whom we know in our lives, are reduced to mere privilege, when their individual stories and struggles are often unique and heartbreaking. While there may certainly be a significant proportion of cases where "white privilege" plays a huge role, to condemn an entire demographic of people by dismissing their success to be a consequence of privilege, is an insult to their individual struggles, which in many cases, are anything but privileged. There are plenty of people who are quick to dismiss someone because of the color of their skin, than listen to their individual story.

Re: If you care about diversity, don't just hire from the same five schools

#487

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...our best recruiter was forced out because she spent too much time hanging out with engineers outside after-hours... What might be the rationale for that? At every company I've worked at, the best results came when people worked across divisions between boundaries. I once asked a VC what grassroots indicators they looked at inside of companies, and they said a collaborative environment without a lot of silos. I'd n…

Politics. The HR Lead didn't like that she was technically competent and friendly with engineers. This was even cited - She was written up for taking up engineers time. It's a sad story, but what can you do?

I know it's water under the bridge in your case, but if anybody else happens to read this, there are some protections in place for employees. Coordinating with other employees might be protected by your local labor laws, so talk to a local labor agency office. I know someone who was fired illegally for talking to other employees about things like their employment conditions, and the employer was required to compensate them.

Re: If you care about diversity, don't just hire from the same five schools

#488
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have 2 pools: a practice pool and then a pool where you get guaranteed interviews with employers. If you do well in practice, you can book real interviews with any number of top companies who've come to trust in the quality of our users. This goes for both senior engineers, and more recently, students.

Do you have stats on how many of your customers are in their 30's and 40's? I would think that demographic would find practicing very useful since they have been out of touch with algorithms for a while.

Median interviewing.io user currently has 6 years of experience (we don't ask people their ages).

Re: If you care about diversity, don't just hire from the same five schools

#489

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The supine and complicit media came out near 100% in support of Hillary Yes, that explains the overwhelming concentration on the email "scandal" whilst ignoring literally everything that Trump said. > I know lots of Americans and I've never seen a shred of racism or sexism in any of them. That's ... not how it works. > and you can't point out a single reason why ... guess what? But the reasons are pointed out. They…

> Yes, that explains the overwhelming concentration on the email "scandal" whilst ignoring literally everything that Trump said. It was not entirely undeserved though - the scandal was certainly newsworthy and had many unprecedented events. The Bill Clinton-Loretta Lynch tarmac meeting was highly inappropriate, leading to the eventual decision falling to James Comey. James Comey had earlier, much to the dismay of Rep…

Wow, you really bought into the Trump campaign, huh.

> There is no evidence to suggest that they are being willfully ignored

Check any analysis of the coverage - Trump's was overwhelmingly "oh, this guy!" whilst ignoring his racism, sexism, misogyny, etc.

> to condemn an entire demographic of people by dismissing their success to be a consequence of privilege

You seem to be suggesting that because some white people have struggles, there must be no white privilege. Which is bollocks as you well know.

Re: If you care about diversity, don't just hire from the same five schools

#490

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Anonymous? My user can easily be googled... Feel free to link it up with your real-world identity; I just find more generic profiles with the same user id. > women are less INTERESTED Yes, this is an example of your lack of historical grounding. That is the same sort of sexist nonsense that we've been seeing for generations. The argument goes: women aren't technically inferior , it's just that they're naturally not…

>> "women are inferior" dressed up in a dinner jacket so it fits in with polite company No, it's not even close to the same. That an individual is less likely to choose a career doesn't mean that individual inherently is bad at it. You keep trying to imply that I think less of women. I don't. I'm happy to acknowledge there are plenty of women who are much better than me at tech and plenty that have helped me out. Jus…

This is the heart of your ignorance:

> They just happen in smaller numbers compared to men.

Black people just happened to perfect slaves, unsuited to life as free people. [1] Women just happened not to want the vote. [2] Those were dumb arguments then, and it's a dumb argument now. Things don't just happen; they happen for reasons. And given our multi-millennial history of male dominance over women, these reasons are often historical.

You can dress it up however you like, but your vigorous defense of the historically biased status quo is inevitably sexist in result. Any woman seeing this is going to immediately have to prepare to be treated like this: https://xkcd.com/385/

If you really care about helping women into STEM careers, you'll learn some history and stop talking like this. Given the number of anonymous dudes who spend their time arguing against fixing historical sexism who also claim to be super-dedicated to helping women, you can probably work out what I think you'll actually do.

[1] See, e.g., https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornerstone_Speech#The_.27Corn... or https://www.tsl.texas.gov/ref/abouttx/secession/2feb1861.htm...

[2] E.g.: https://ehistory.osu.edu/exhibitions/1912/womens_suffrage/wo...

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