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Many junior scientists need to take a hard look at their job prospects

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Re: Many junior scientists need to take a hard look at their job prospects

#91

Post by Nicholas7900 »

chriskanan wrote: post #6

The longer students stay in a PhD program, the less likely they want to be professors. Typically many first year students say this, but the numbers quickly drop off in later years. When I was a PhD student, I gave a few talks and blogged about this issue. I would present all these statistics in my talks about what they needed to do to be competitive, and people just absolutely hated me for it. One person said she wan…

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Re: Many junior scientists need to take a hard look at their job prospects

#92

Post by jorvi »

SomeStupidPoint wrote: post #62
raister wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is changing, thankfully. First authors should be the ones leading the paper, according to contributions. Some journals are asking for the actual contributions performed by each author, which I think is very good. Alphabetical order should be banned, period.

You state your opinion, but don't justify it -- could you share why you think it is important we list first author by contribution? What does this accomplish? Obviously not everyone agrees (or you wouldn't have felt the need to post), so why not share why you think you're right, so we can discuss the issue? Edit: Well, we've proven that people feel very strongly about this, but I'm no closer to understanding why peop…

You don't see how ordering purely on name is extremely unfair to those whose first letter of name is one of the last in the alphabet..?

Re: Many junior scientists need to take a hard look at their job prospects

#93

Post by BenoitEssiambre »

nopinsight wrote: post #14
chriskanan wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If anyone is interested, here are my old blog posts on the requirements for getting an interview for a professorship at a top-50 school: [1] http://www.chriskanan.com/planning-for-life-after-your-phd/ [2] http://www.chriskanan.com/statistics-on-computer-science-pro... [3] http://www.chriskanan.com/statistics-on-ucsds-computer-scien...

From your [3] above, do theory PhD graduates usually have more or fewer publications? What would be your guesstimates of the mean/median number of first author publications of faculty candidates at a top school? "Number First Author Publications (excluding theory folks) Mean: 12.8±6.5 Median: 14.5 Range: 2 – 25"

No wonder there is a reproducibility crisis. This one of the reasons why so many papers out there are so scientifically unimportant and statistically dubious and are only adding noise to human knowledge. Slow down scientists!

Re: Many junior scientists need to take a hard look at their job prospects

#94

Post by hyperbovine »

chriskanan wrote: post #6

The longer students stay in a PhD program, the less likely they want to be professors. Typically many first year students say this, but the numbers quickly drop off in later years. When I was a PhD student, I gave a few talks and blogged about this issue. I would present all these statistics in my talks about what they needed to do to be competitive, and people just absolutely hated me for it. One person said she wan…

> ... you work 80 hours per week and make less than ...

I've read so many comments like yours, on HN and elsewhere, and invariably the argument hinges on some variation of the above sentiment. I've come to believe I just have fundamentally different values than the vast majority of people who work in industry.

To answer your (friends') question, because the work is more interesting and I make plenty of money as it stands.

Re: Many junior scientists need to take a hard look at their job prospects

#95

Post by [deleted] »

ageofwant wrote: post #43
chriskanan wrote: post #6

The longer students stay in a PhD program, the less likely they want to be professors. Typically many first year students say this, but the numbers quickly drop off in later years. When I was a PhD student, I gave a few talks and blogged about this issue. I would present all these statistics in my talks about what they needed to do to be competitive, and people just absolutely hated me for it. One person said she wan…

'Professor' is a job description, you usually need a PhD to apply for the job, but it's not always a hard requirement. There are many more people with PhD's than Professor jobs. In my experience its the politically astute that get the job, its much less of a meritocracy than one would assume.

[deleted]

Re: Many junior scientists need to take a hard look at their job prospects

#96

Post by rdlecler1 »

University has become a bit of a Ponzi scheme. I’d love to see PhD programs drop to 3-4 years from 5-7. Especially in programs like biosciences where there are limited job prospects. Universities sell a romantic idealism knowing the likely outcome. Most students are too young or captivated to really do their due diligence. There should be labels on a PhD like the anti-smoking labels on cigarettes.

Re: Many junior scientists need to take a hard look at their job prospects

#97

Post by SomeStupidPoint »

jorvi wrote: post #92
SomeStupidPoint wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You state your opinion, but don't justify it -- could you share why you think it is important we list first author by contribution? What does this accomplish? Obviously not everyone agrees (or you wouldn't have felt the need to post), so why not share why you think you're right, so we can discuss the issue? Edit: Well, we've proven that people feel very strongly about this, but I'm no closer to understanding why peop…

You don't see how ordering purely on name is extremely unfair to those whose first letter of name is one of the last in the alphabet..?

I have such a name -- doesn't particularly bother me.

I understand how people can feel that way though, but my question is -- why is that feeling anything but obsessing over a vanity metric, and actually a useful mechanism for author evaluation?

Re: Many junior scientists need to take a hard look at their job prospects

#98

Post by loarake »

yannis7 wrote: post #22

Academia nowadays is a high-tech bureaucracy; you are forced to churn out documents (papers) that need to cite other documents, and you're evaluated based on your position in the inter-document citation network. Then you have to write other documents (grant proposals) to grab money to write more documents (papers) by gaming the inner mechanics of some comittee. If partner-track investment bankers are overworked, depr…

-Working for a big tech company: you're writing code to deliver more ads to more people so the company can grow and deliver even more ads to even more people

-Being a truck driver: you're moving boxes around

-Being a professional hockey player: you and your team are moving really fast with a disk shaped object trying to put it in a net while people try to prevent you from doing it

-Being a stock trader: making money by spending your whole life reading company reports and hoping you're right about whether they're doing well or not

-Being a quant: using your hard earned computer science skills to move money around and turn a profit instead of helping humanity

Almost every human endeavor can be trivialized if you choose to only see one side of it.

Re: Many junior scientists need to take a hard look at their job prospects

#99

Post by rwj »

disinterred wrote: post #29
chriskanan wrote: post #6

The longer students stay in a PhD program, the less likely they want to be professors. Typically many first year students say this, but the numbers quickly drop off in later years. When I was a PhD student, I gave a few talks and blogged about this issue. I would present all these statistics in my talks about what they needed to do to be competitive, and people just absolutely hated me for it. One person said she wan…

When you become a tenured professor, the amount of work you do is far less than the vast majority of other jobs with a similar salary. The only real commitments are the classes you have to teach and if you minimize the amount of teaching you do, you'll barely be working at all. I knew a history professor that would come into the university for his 1 or 2 classes per week and then would go home for the rest of the day…

Watching my supervisor in engineering convinced me that I did not want to become a professor. He worked hard... teaching, mentoring, grant writing, plus a whole pile of administrative duties.

Re: Many junior scientists need to take a hard look at their job prospects

#100

Post by eighthnate »

This is an academic industry wide problem, not just for junior scientists. When tenured professors stay on their job for 40 or 50 years and new universities/positions aren't created each year for newly minded PhDs, it's going to create a pyramid like structure in academia with the comfortable professors at the top and legions of phds on the bottom struggling to get to the top.

Ask philosophy, history and even economics PhDs. The research/academic/etc opportunities simply aren't there because it is structurally impossible. And as time goes on, it's only going to get worse and worse.

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