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No, of that I'm innocent

scobleizer.blog

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Re: No, of that I'm innocent

#141

Post by zaroth »

ghaff wrote: post #138
noonesays wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't think anyone here is talking about "flirting." Literally three comments up from your own comment: > If you are the keynote speaker of a conference, DO NOT flirt with other attendees or other coworkers, regardless of the line of report.

Fair enough. I did not see that and would actually disagree with it for appropriately non aggressive values of flirting. (If you’re a high profile keynote speaker specifically though, caution is increasingly called for.)

Greer's account of Scoble flirting with her at a hotel bar (drinks in both hands, touched her leg) is quite the counter-point.

It appears like that moment had a lasting and significant impact on Michelle. [1] The repercussions as Michelle tells them are certainly terrible. I feel badly for Michelle and want to understand better what she experienced from her perspective.

That was certainly unwanted sexual contact. Was it sexual assault? Possibly. Was is sexual harassment? Possibly! All unwanted sexual contact is not actually automatically sexual harassment. [2]

[1] - https://www.buzzfeed.com/doree/woman-accuses-robert-scoble-o...

[2] - http://www.un.org/womenwatch/osagi/pdf/whatissh.pdf

Re: No, of that I'm innocent

#142

Post by ghaff »

zaroth wrote: post #141
ghaff wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair enough. I did not see that and would actually disagree with it for appropriately non aggressive values of flirting. (If you’re a high profile keynote speaker specifically though, caution is increasingly called for.)

Greer's account of Scoble flirting with her at a hotel bar (drinks in both hands, touched her leg) is quite the counter-point. It appears like that moment had a lasting and significant impact on Michelle. [1] The repercussions as Michelle tells them are certainly terrible. I feel badly for Michelle and want to understand better what she experienced from her perspective. That was certainly unwanted sexual contact. Was…

I think that goes way beyond casual "flirting" in most people's book. Obviously people differ, signals get misread, and tolerances vary. I'm aware of one "code of conduct violation" report based on a Tshirt that made me roll my eyes--as well as the eyes of quite a few women I know. But that doesn't seem like a particular edge case as reported.

Re: No, of that I'm innocent

#143

Post by QAPereo »

Mz wrote: post #129
QAPereo wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually vote, as a group, in your own best self interest... not for people like Trump. Hold representatives to account, and put money and votes where the mouths are.

That doesn't really answer the question. I am interested in seeing a list of policies and practices that actually work to do the following: 1) Include women equally in the work force. 2) Protect all parties from both sexual impropriety and scandal without simply presuming women are victims, men are predators. I am not aware of well developed policies for preventing such dramas. And I have read quite a lot on human se…

1. Start with electing representatives in government to promulgate your interests.

2. See 1

Re: No, of that I'm innocent

#144

Post by Mz »

QAPereo wrote: post #143
Mz wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't really answer the question. I am interested in seeing a list of policies and practices that actually work to do the following: 1) Include women equally in the work force. 2) Protect all parties from both sexual impropriety and scandal without simply presuming women are victims, men are predators. I am not aware of well developed policies for preventing such dramas. And I have read quite a lot on human se…

1. Start with electing representatives in government to promulgate your interests. 2. See 1

So, in other words, you have zero source for policies known to work and there is no list you can point me to for known solutions.

Thank you.

Re: No, of that I'm innocent

#145

Post by zaroth »

openmosix wrote: post #117
TarpitCarnivore wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can't create a hostile work environment if you're not actually working with someone or exerting direct influence over their career? Quinn's story was not at a 'work environment' so does it have any less impact? Why are you letting him adjust the narrative to define what he feels is harassment?

Let's also not forget that it was a conference. A very laid back-camping kind of conference, but a conference. In today's standards - where you can't join a project or visit/talk to a conference without accepting a CoC - this would still be considered an extension of the workplace, or at least be classified as a "professional setting". We are not talking rocket science: if you are in a professional setting, getting o…

Read back to the context of my question. Two drunk people coming together to "make out" at a camp out -- this is a "conference" like Burning Man is a conference -- if this is in and of itself is creating a "hostile work environment" I think that words are losing their meaning.

I don't really care what kind of narrative Scoble is trying to make. I have no knowledge of the specifics of his situation or his encounters, and couldn't care less about passing judgement on him.

But I was very curious about this idea that, which seems to be stated throughout this thread, someone can become so influential in an industry that any non-professional contact they have industry-wide could be sexual harassment.

And again, and again, I have to say, if there was assault that is just a completely different issue entirely.

Re: No, of that I'm innocent

#146

Post by zaroth »

emodendroket wrote: post #139
zaroth wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quinn's story sounds like assault and has nothing to do with sexual harassment. To me that just muddies the waters.

Surely he doesn't intend to say "I'm not guilty of sexual harassment but rather sexual assault."

Not at all. Sexual harassment describes different behavior than assault, and is not a crime. The same behavior which may be sexual harassment in one context could be entirely appropriate in another context. And all that is to say, there is a necessary context to sexual harassment.

Scoble claims that any sexual advances he made lacked the necessary context to be considered sexual harassment. He may not even be wrong.

I referenced the UN fact sheet on "What is Sexual Harassment" in another comment but perhaps I should quote it directly;

Unwelcome sexual advances, requests for sexual favors, and other verbal or physical conduct of a sexual nature _when_ (emphasis added):

· Submission to such conduct is made either explicitly or implicitly a term or condition of an individual's employment, or

· Submission to or rejection of such conduct by an individual is used as a basis for employment decisions affecting such individual, or

· Such conduct has the purpose or effect of unreasonably interfering with an individual's work performance or creating an intimidating, hostile, or offensive working environment.

Re: No, of that I'm innocent

#147

Post by Anderkent »

oh_sigh wrote: post #66
Anderkent wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just people finding out you have a bodycam is likely enough to get a harassment bandwagon going against you. It's creepy.

You don't need to tell anyone.

Yes, and then if you ever try to use those recordings it gets even creepier.

Re: No, of that I'm innocent

#148

Post by zaroth »

slg wrote: post #127
zaroth wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where does this line of thinking lead? I mean it's one thing to limit any attempts at intimacy in the workplace, but if you're just 'influential enough' then you expand this definition to include anyone in the entire tech sector? This seems clearly illogical. Again, if there was assault it's a totally different matter. But sexual harassment is a lower bar specifically because of the idea no one should have to work in…

I believe you are looking at this problem the wrong way. Part of that is the fault of the media and all of us on social media that focus on the heinousness of Harvey Weinstein's actions and our immediate move to dehumanize and vilify him. Weinstein was so far past the line that it might cloud were the line actually is. It is only natural for men to look at him and go "I'm not that bad, I didn't threaten anyone, I did…

In a perfect world, no one's feelings get hurt in love, and there is no war. We do not live in that world, and as mere mortals we are incapable of creating such a utopia.

It's a strawman that "your first romantic move with someone shouldn't be a grope or an offer to get naked." The reality is that ham-fisted proposals and hurtful rejection are rampant 'out there on the dance floor' and the purpose of sexual harassment policy is not, in fact, a idealized manual on how to behave in love and romance, but rules which apply exclusively in the workplace in order to ensure equality in the workplace.

If you're talking about sexual harassment outside of the workplace, then you're Doing It Wrong. If you're conflating poorly executed romantic endeavor with what is actually assault, that's even worse.

Please understand I'm engaging in the debate not to defend some asshole who I don't know and couldn't care two shits about, but I think there's a deeper meaning & understanding to be had here...

It seems to me, only from what little I've read about the man, that Scoble quite clearly is a jerk and an ass, and he owes quite a few people quite a few apologies. That much I most certainly am not debating!

I feel like we're on the cusp of a great wave of progress in the area. But I think if mere jerks and assholes are the new target, the inevitable backlash could set the whole movement back a decade.

Re: No, of that I'm innocent

#149

Post by QAPereo »

Mz wrote: post #144
QAPereo wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. Start with electing representatives in government to promulgate your interests. 2. See 1

So, in other words, you have zero source for policies known to work and there is no list you can point me to for known solutions. Thank you.

“In other words”

No, just what I said, although clearly it fell short of what you’d like to hear.

Re: No, of that I'm innocent

#150

Post by zaroth »

ghaff wrote: post #142
zaroth wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Greer's account of Scoble flirting with her at a hotel bar (drinks in both hands, touched her leg) is quite the counter-point. It appears like that moment had a lasting and significant impact on Michelle. [1] The repercussions as Michelle tells them are certainly terrible. I feel badly for Michelle and want to understand better what she experienced from her perspective. That was certainly unwanted sexual contact. Was…

I think that goes way beyond casual "flirting" in most people's book. Obviously people differ, signals get misread, and tolerances vary. I'm aware of one "code of conduct violation" report based on a Tshirt that made me roll my eyes--as well as the eyes of quite a few women I know. But that doesn't seem like a particular edge case as reported.

Touching someone's leg is considered flirting, is it not? Honestly, I did not mean to mis-characterize it.
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